LiPO batteries, charge before 1st use?

[Kurlon]

In theory, that system should protect the battery, on the flip side it also introduces a parasitic draw of it's own so it'll only protect you for so long before it takes the batt out on it's own. And cutting out at 2v is WAY too late for a 4S LiFePo4 stack.

On the cycle count, remember you're not fully cycling the battery unless something is REALLY wrong, so those counts don't directly apply. On the flip side this is why my Highlander Hybrid will only draw down to about 70% capacity and only charges back up to 80%, to extend batt life.

[Stromper]

I upgraded to a Yuasa smart charger

I still do NOT leave them on indefinitely as I have had 2 a deltran and a Schumacher which I believed cooked the batteries

I am cheap and have 7 little seasonal batteries to chase after

Over a winter I claim you only need to charge them twice

[butcher bergs]

I find it hard to believe those batteries don't come with protections already built in to prevent damage (or fire).

[Kurlon]

I find it hard to believe those batteries don't come with protections already built in to prevent damage (or fire).

Adding in an EarthX style middleware board between the cell packs and the terminals ups the cost and ups the potential failure modes and spots failures could occur at. If you rip apart a Ballistic, Shorai, Deltran, etc there's no fusing/etc just like you won't find any in a traditional Lead Acid or fancier AGM or Gel variant.

[butcher bergs]

Adding in an EarthX style middleware board between the cell packs and the terminals ups the cost and ups the potential failure modes and spots failures could occur at. If you rip apart a Ballistic, Shorai, Deltran, etc there's no fusing/etc just like you won't find any in a traditional Lead Acid or fancier AGM or Gel variant.

Color me amazed at reading this information. Even my $12 helicopter has protections in place but not these batteries? Why is this, I wonder?

[Kurlon]

Color me amazed at reading this information. Even my $12 helicopter has protections in place but not these batteries? Why is this, I wonder?

I just posted why, added cost (much higher than on your Heli, which does it at the board and not the battery pack, and doesn't have to deal with anywhere near the amp draw these batts can see as normal use) and added potential failures. When you look at how the batts fair in normal use, it's just not an issue so why bother?

[butcher bergs]

I've got some reading to do

[Kurlon]

There is an awesome, amazingly long thread on adventure riders with a gentleman actually taking apart and torture testing various units. Lots of good info, science, test data and video.

[Garandman]

Here's the thread. Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) - ADVrider

A few caveats. The thread is over 120 pages. about 100 pages of which are Cy. Cy is a layman and seems to have spent a lot of time studying/testing/opining so there is a lot of interesting and potentially useful info. It started in 2012 so of the early information is out-of-date.

You will notice that user "Antigravity" works for that company and responds directly to most user questions. but seems to have stopped responding directly to Cy. EarthX has decided not to participate there though they will respond directly to questions. You might detect a pattern....

I found that most of the LiFeP04 manufacturers were focused on the "fair weather" sport bike market. They were much less responsive to the need to start an Aventure bike that has a lot of accessories and might need to start in cold temps. 2013 Advrider thread. At the time all the IiFeP04 manufacturers were under-specing their batteries for this application and most still are. I contacted them and asked, "What battery do I need to absolutely, positively start a Tiger 1050 after a night outdoors at 40 degrees?" The only one who even responded was EarthX: and they still recommend an ETX18 on their website while I bought a 24 after talking to them. Their pitch. 2 year 100% replacement.

I have an absurd # of Battery Tenders (8, I believe) so when they introduced their new battery I tried to contact them by email and phone. Never got any response of any kind. 1 year 100% replacement.

We also have an Antigravity Microstart. It's a LiPo jump pack battery that weighs less than a lb and we've abused the hell out of ours. Antigravity and EarthX used to act like Crips and Bloods towards each other but that seems to have changed as others have entered the market. EarthX and many others now offer them but ours has been fantastic. They say they have the least-restrictive [3 year] warranty, then state they will not warranty when:

Using a Battery Tender or similar product on the Antigravity Battery (do not use trickle chargers)
Use of Chargers intended for Lead/Acid batteries (do not use any charger for lead/acid batteries)
Use of Chargers NOT intended specifically for Lifepo4 Lithium Motorsprot Batteries with a maximum charge voltage not over 14.4V

5 month 100% replacement.

FWIW I don't ride the Triumph in Winter. I was concerned about cold Spring and Fall temps but not below freezing. I' let the Triumph sit for six weeks and started after a night outside at 38-40 and that was good enough for me.

We replace OEM car batteries with AGM in our fleet at work. For winter riders, I'd stick with AGM over LiFeP04.

For sport bike riders the light weight, small size, low rate of internal discharge and (hopefully) longer life makes the LiFeP04 batteries a great choice.

[ZX-12R]

The electrical engineer in me knows better but when you're conditioned to expect a certain size and weight battery, when you first see one of these your mind starts running through doomsday scenarios where you are stranded in the woods. We'll see how it holds up.

[ZX-12R]

And as a quick note for the initial charge:

It stayed in its less than 80% charge mode for about an hour which is a steady RED LED and once over 80% it changes the LED to a flashing GREEN. I went to bed before the cycle finished but when I woke up the LED was solid GREEN which means charging is complete.

[xxaarraa]

The electrical engineer in me knows better but when you're conditioned to expect a certain size and weight battery, when you first see one of these your mind starts running through doomsday scenarios where you are stranded in the woods. We'll see how it holds up.

That's a small battery! 120 cranking amps?

I put a ballistic "4 cell" in my KLX dirt bike back when I had it. It never had any juice to start the dam thing more than 1-2 times. And since I was a noobie dirt rider who was always stopping to take pics etc. in the woods, that ballistic let me down, and I went and bought another stock KLX battery.

[Garandman]

The electrical engineer in me knows better but when you're conditioned to expect a certain size and weight battery, when you first see one of these your mind starts running through doomsday scenarios where you are stranded in the woods. We'll see how it holds up.

Isn't that crazy?

Those LiPo jump batteries weigh less than a pound. Take about the same room and weigh the same as my Yuasa jumper cables.

[ZX-12R]

I put a ballistic "4 cell" in my KLX dirt bike back when I had it. It never had any juice to start the dam thing more than 1-2 times.

That is probably my chief concern. The real capacity of LiFePO4 batteries varies by brand but is typically in the 1/3ish range of their "Lead" rated equivalent. That would put this battery somewhere between 2.3 and 3Ah where the stock YTX5L is 4Ah. The KTM EXC models have a decent charging system for what they are so as long as I don't leave the key on with the engine off for an extended period, I should be ok.

[ZX-12R]

I didn't notice the 25.6 Watt-hour marking on the front of the battery before so if you divide that number by the nominal voltage of the battery, you are at or just under 2Ah which makes the actual capacity of the battery about half of the lead acid equivalent in a deep discharge scenario.

[TrackRat]

This seems like the appropriate thread. I haven't done any trouble-shooting, yet, so the battery might not even be the culprit. Regardless, I went out to start my '09 ZX6R, this morning, turned the key and got no response. No dash lights, no headlight, nothing. I've been commuting on it for the past two weeks, with no issue. Yesterday was the first day when it seemed to be running a bit off on the way home (it was likely the hottest commute that I've done, so far). I shut it down on the way home to get gas, it started fine and got me home. Parked it in the garage, last night, and woke up this morning to nothing.

Is there any explanation for this failure mode on a Shorai battery? I've done some quick searches, and I'll tear into the bike, tonight, but the complete lack of power seems very strange.

Follow up - I just pulled the seat off, and the battery shows no voltage across the posts. I've had the bike for 2 years, now, and the battery may very well be three years old, but the failure mode still seems very strange to me.

[Garandman]

Got a multimeter? You can start with the battery voltage.

[TrackRat]

Got a multimeter? You can start with the battery voltage.

Battery voltage is .102 V. No mistake on the decimal. Sucker is dead.

[ZX-12R]

The little battery held up fine for two days of trail riding. It went through a couple dozen starts throughout the course of the event without a hiccup. If it holds up for the long run, I'll start putting them in other toys.

[nhbubba]

The little battery held up fine for two days of trail riding. It went through a couple dozen starts throughout the course of the event without a hiccup. If it holds up for the long run, I'll start putting them in other toys.

How's it treating you?

[ZX-12R]

Still no issues with the battery. I forgot to put it on a tender for the winter and it still fired up with no trouble last week. I'd have no problem putting them in other bikes.

[nhbubba]

Do you have any comments on sizing? Aside from the physical layout fit, how do you size these for a given bike? I hear the CCA figures are fantasy land and the manufacturers often recommend too small of a battery for real abuse.

[ZX-12R]

I sized mine based on a cross reference chart that Battery Tender provided. I'm never too concerned about raw CCA numbers since that number is only relevant in an ideal environment. The characteristics of the entire electrical path will likely limit you to something less than the max a battery can provide. My bigger concern is with the actual capacity of the battery. The recommended battery for my KTM physically is a fraction of the size of the lead acid one it replaced. I ran the math and the actual capacity is just under 2 amp-hours vs. 4 amp-hours for the regular chemistry. Without experimenting, it's hard to say how both will perform as they draw down because LiFePO4 batteries perform great right up until the point where they die while the lead-acid batteries proportionately lose voltage and the ability to source current as they discharge. Even though I haven't had any problems, for my own peace of mind the next time I buy one of these I will compare the physical dimensions of the batteries and replace it with an equivalent sized one even if it's overkill for my application. I'd rather have the extra capacity and not need it.

Edit: My battery came with adhesive foam that you stick on to make it similar in size to the original one. It's tacky but it works.

[tls25rs]

My battery came with adhesive foam that you stick on to make it similar in size to the original one. It's tacky but it works.

I see what you did there