LiPO batteries, charge before 1st use?

[Ductard]

Couldn't find anything definitive on the interwebs.

I got one of the "battery tender" brand LiPo batteries.

I *think* it comes in a charged state, and I *think* my battery charger has a mode for LiPO (it has one for gel, etc., but I don't recall if 100% if there's on for LiPo).

But, I don't want to find out I'm wrong on one or both of those fronts when I get up to NYST late Friday night....

It's one of these guys:

Amazon.com: Battery Tender BTL14A240C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery: Automotive

Also open to any serious commentary on whether I'm setting myself up to have my Ducati catch fire or something bad if I install this little guy...

[Petorius]

Terminals in all 4 corners! Wow!

[Ductard]

Terminals in all 4 corners! Wow!

In need of sarcasm font?

[Petorius]

No, I've never seen that. Would have saved me a few times in the past.

[Ductard]

Amazon.com: Battery Tender BTL14A240C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery: Automotive

No, I've never seen that. Would have saved me a few times in the past.

Gotcha.

I think those are there because the batteries are not an exact bolt-on for the stock ones they replace. They come with little foam bits to get them to fit in place. But they're so lightweight it seems they don't need to be secured as well as the stock one (mine weighs 1.5lbs I think)

The big selling point for me is that the OEM Yuasa battery in the 1199 is known to be underpowered.

It only weighs ~5 lbs, but other bikes that use it are the likes of a DRZ400...

The upside is that at ~$30, it was the first Ducati OEM part that didn't make me want to shoot myself in the face.

But the Battery Tender battery that I ordered was on sale for $66, so I figured it was worth giving a shot. The stock battery is like 5.5lbs (still light) so a battery that's supposed to last 5x as long, let me shed 4lbs of weight, and I believe has better cranking power for an extra $33 seemed like it was worth giving a shot.



Amazon.com: Battery Tender BTL14A240C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery: Automotive

[xxaarraa]

wow deltran branded battery?! That's a good price, let me know how it works out for ya. I just bought a 12 cell ballistic for $230 which is ridiculous for a battery. Yes, they do come charged.

[PinHead]

You didn't get a LiPo battery, you got a LiFePO4, big difference.
Here you go. How to charge Lithium Iron Phosphate lithium ion battery packs including packs with high current and High Capacity.

[Trajiks9]

I have this same battery for my '13 ZX6r. I agree, It is wicked light! I did not charge mine prior to install and all is well. I use my standard Deltran Battery Tender Plus to maintain it. They do sell a specific Lithium charger. Not sure if I am harming anything by using the standard tender. You will be fine to just plug and play!

[Ductard]

I have this same battery for my '13 ZX6r. I agree, It is wicked light! I did not charge mine prior to install and all is well. I use my standard Deltran Battery Tender Plus to maintain it. They do sell a specific Lithium charger. Not sure if I am harming anything by using the standard tender. You will be fine to just plug and play!

Hmmm...When I opened up the battery, it said "Only charged to 70% capacity, must be charged before use"

Getting that last 30% in the battery might wind up being a PITA...

Given what little I've learned about lithium batteries, (or LiFePO4 as Pinhead has corrected me) there are no memory issues, and deep cycling causes only *slightly* more wear and tear....you think that "must be charged" is just a CYA from the manufacturer....in case the battery has been shelved for a while so people don't get upset if it's not charged when it shows up?

[Ductard]

Ok, so turns out my battery charger (Schumacher XC75W) doesn't have a designated lithium ion setting.

It has a
STD/AGM/GEL setting
and
3/5/20/75 amp setting

Obviously, I'd run 3A or maybe 5A (going to see what the battery can take)

but does anyone know if this has a "desulfonization" feature and if any of those modes would turn it off, or just change the charge curve?

Desulfonization seems to be what isn't good for the lithium battery....

[Ductard]

Nevermind, it has a desulfation mode, which cannot be switched off.....

Guess I'm going the plug and play route and hope it has enough charge to start the bike...

http://www.batterychargers.com/conte...9001465-R0.pdf

[Trajiks9]

Battery Tender - Battery Frequently Asked Questions

[Ductard]

Battery Tender - Battery Frequently Asked Questions

Thanks, I dug up one of those little 12v battery tenders I had kicking around. Didn't seem to have a desulfation mode, so I plugged it in last night and it was green this morning.
Sometimes simpler is better!

Seemed almost on purpose that the Battery Tender website was silent on the issue of using that specific model on a lithium battery, assumedly so they can sell more of their lithium battery specific chargers.

Amazon.com: Battery Tender 021-0123 Battery Tender Junior 12V Battery Charger: Automotive

[stoinkythepig]

A little late to the game, but for future reference... Measure the output voltage of your battery charger and ensure it's less than 14.8 volts before hooking it up to a lithium battery. If it's greater than 14.8 volts, hook it to the battery and see how much it drops. If it drops to <14.8 volts, great, let it charge, but keep a close eye on the voltage since it will keep climbing as the current drops when the battery nears fully charged state. You could also put a 14.5 volt regulator inline with the charger and battery to keep the voltage from ever exceeding 14.5 volts, just like the charging system on your bike will does.

[xxaarraa]

Any guesses as to why this is less than half the of the cost of a Ballistic or Shorai? I just paid $230 for a ballistic, but if there a comparable cheaper alternative, I'd love to save a few bucks on the next purchase.

Here are the specs of the ballistic battery and the deltran that ductard posted:

Ballistic Performance Part Number: 100-012
Weight: 2.4 lbs
Voltage (Charged): 13.6V
Amp/Hours: 6.9 Ahrs
Burst Cranking Amps: 360 (5 sec @ 70°F)
OPERATING ENVIRONMENT: -18°C (0°F) to 60°C (140°F)

Deltran Specifications: Voltage: 12 Volt;
Cold Cranking Amps: 240;
Lead-Acid Replacement Range: 10-14(Ah);
Operating Temperature: 0 - 140 Degree (Fahrenheit);
Max Charge Rate: 10 Ampere;
Case Dimensions: 5.27 inch (134 millimeter) length x 2.55 inch (65 millimeter) width x 3.62 inch (92 millimeter) height;
Weight: 1.76 pounds

[Ductard]

Any guesses as to why this is a third of the cost of a Ballistic or Shorai? I just paid $230 for a ballistic, but if there a comparable cheaper alternative, I'd love to save a few bucks on the next purchase.

Here are the specs of the ballistic battery and the deltran that ductard posted:

Ballistic Performance Part Number: 100-012
Weight: 2.4 lbs
Voltage (Charged): 13.6V
Amp/Hours: 6.9 Ahrs
Burst Cranking Amps: 360 (5 sec @ 70°F)
OPERATING ENVIRONMENT: -18°C (0°F) to 60°C (140°F)

Deltran Specifications: Voltage: 12 Volt;
Cold Cranking Amps: 240;
Lead-Acid Replacement Range: 10-14(Ah);
Operating Temperature: 0 - 140 Degree (Fahrenheit);
Max Charge Rate: 10 Ampere;
Case Dimensions: 5.27 inch (134 millimeter) length x 2.55 inch (65 millimeter) width x 3.62 inch (92 millimeter) height;
Weight: 1.76 pounds

I'll start off by saying that going by weight alone, your ballistic battery seems to be a bigger battery (assuming as the more expensive battery, it's charge/weight ratio would be at least on par or better).

The reason I'm jumping to that immediately, is that the battery for the 1199 is a very small (you may even say underpowered). The OEM Yuasa replacement was like $30, vs. ~$100 for previous ducati replacements (IIRC). Other bikes you'll find it in are small dirtbikes/sumos like the DRZ400.

Assuming that the Deltran battery isn't just a POS, Its also possible that Deltran is riding off of other people's R&D money.....

My impression is that the base lithium ion battery tech is actually pretty old, it's just now that small tweaks are making them feasible for applications. Not sure if that carries over to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries too.

[xxaarraa]

I'll start off by saying that going by weight alone, your ballistic battery seems to be a bigger battery (assuming as the more expensive battery, it's charge/weight ratio would be at least on par or better).

The reason I'm jumping to that immediately, is that the battery for the 1199 is a very small (you may even say underpowered). The OEM Yuasa replacement was like $30, vs. ~$100 for previous ducati replacements (IIRC). Other bikes you'll find it in are small dirtbikes/sumos like the DRZ400.

Assuming that the Deltran battery isn't just a POS, Its also possible that Deltran is riding off of other people's R&D money.....

My impression is that the base lithium ion battery tech is actually pretty old, it's just now that small tweaks are making them feasible for applications. Not sure if that carries over to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries too.

Yeah, the ballistic is a 12 cell and does seem like it's a bigger battery. I need to read up on difference between LiPo and LifePo.

In general though, ballistic, anti-gravity, shorai... they have all been pricey. I always assumed that's the norm. But if Deltran (and maybe others) is now offering a cheaper alternative, I'd do it.

[Stromper]

Light fuse
Throw towards enemy

[ZX-12R]

The YTX5L-BS in my KTM has not been holding a charge reliably and the Battery Tender BTL09A120C is cheap enough at $66ish bucks to finally experiment with LiFePO4. I just snagged one and the associated charger and should have it by Wednesday. We'll see how it holds up.

Amazon.com: Battery Tender BTL09A120C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery: Automotive

[Garandman]

I bought an EarthX, expensive, longer warranty, etc. It can be charged with a standard charger (some can't). Weighs 5 lns les than the stock Tiger and increased the cranking speed of the notoriously slow cranking 1050.

They are also being sold at WalMart. Who makes it is unknown. The LiFeP04 market is a bit of the Wild West, with, for example, counterfit A123 [prismatic] cells being packaged into other products.

One common problem is that the vendors under-spec the batteries for cold starts and other road bike uses. For example Deltran specs a 14ahe while EarthX spevs am 18ahe,

I've had a generic LiFeP04 48v pack on my ebike for 4-5 years. So far, so good!

[Kurlon]

I bought an EarthX, expensive, longer warranty, etc. It can be charged with a standard charger (some can't).

One common problem is that the vendors under-spec the batteries for cold starts and other road bike uses. For example Deltran specs a 14ahe while EarthX spevs am 18ahe,

So, a few misconceptions here that need to be cleared up.

First - All LiFePo4 batts can be charged by a boring, standard charger. The assumption is you need a special balance charger to keep all the cells in check. Reality is they'll all self balance as long as you give them time on the charger to do so. Some balance a little quicker than others, but in a road bike application it's just not something you should ever have to worry about unless your only use is 3 minute trips to Starbucks and back. Now, the one thing to watch out for are 'intelligent' chargers that try to be cutesy and flip into a desulfating mode, those can and will kill your LiFePo4 batt, bad charger BAD!

Second - All the brands lie about their LiFePo4 battery capacity. When quoting cold cranking amps and even amp hour ratings they use a BS made up formula (and each one is different) to try and line up their batt with the 'equivalent' sized Lead Acid they're targeting to replace. Short answer, these batts have no where NEAR the long draw or CCA capacity of Lead Acid batteries. The good news is you should never NEED to take any batt, lead or lithium anywhere near those numbers on a street bike, so ignore them. Compare 8 cell to 8 cell, 12 cell to 12 cell etc and you'll be comparing apples to apples.

Third - On that KTM, if you've got a parasitic draw that's draining your lead acid, you'll have a toast LiFePo4 in even shorter order, check that before you leave the batt in. They do NOT cope at all with being drawn down too far. You'll also want to verify that the Reg/Rect is doing a good job capping the charging voltage so it's not cooking off your batt when you're winding the snot out of the bike. The alternative to a LiFePo4 for that bike as an upgrade is a Yuasa YTZ7 unit that is the same size as the YTX5 but has nearly twice the actual capacity. It also weighs a bit more than the YTX5 and a LOT more than the LiFePo4. :/

[ZX-12R]

Third - On that KTM, if you've got a parasitic draw that's draining your lead acid, you'll have a toast LiFePo4 in even shorter order, check that before you leave the batt in.

No parasitic draw, just abuse from the owner by letting it get discharged over the winter while it was -20 outside and not having it on a tender. It hasn't fully crapped out but it self discharges to the point of being unable to crank the bike after sitting for a few days (EFI and fuel pump still work so I can kick start it).

[Kurlon]

Heh, oddly my Yuasa YTX4 in my TT-R is still surviving after two winters and no tender. I tried to save the YTX4 in my KTM that suffered a similar fate but it just had no capacity left at all, so a four stroke batt box and a YTX5 is now in it's place. What a PITA batt box design, I had to put the batt in the box and THEN bolt the box in place, it just wouldn't slide in with the box bolted down.

[ZX-12R]

Batteries are weird. The OEM UTX14-BS in my 12R survived for 6 years without a tender. It's replacement lasted for 2 seasons with a tender. The KTM has never been on a tender and it survived its first winter fine but this last one killed it. The $66 price point for LiFe is low enough where if it doesn't work out in the long run, it doesn't sting too badly.

Now that I'm thinking about batteries, the OEM battery in my 2008 Mazda 6 developed a shorted cell 4 months after I bought it new and I replaced it with a Walmart one which is still in there. A few times over the winter I had to press my car starter button twice because it wasn't cranking hard but it it's still chugging along. Since I'm way into the borrowed time range of the battery, if I was smart I would preemptively change it but at this stage of the game I'm curious how long it will last.

[Ductard]

....if you've got a parasitic draw that's draining your lead acid, you'll have a toast LiFePo4 in even shorter order, check that before you leave the batt in. They do NOT cope at all with being drawn down too far.

"a protection system also needs to be implemented to ensure no cell can be discharged below a voltage of 2.0 V or severe damage will occur in most instances."

Provided this Deltran battery has the protection system mentioned above, according to wikipedia it should last for 2,000-7000 cycles vs. 300 or so for a lead-acid battery (longer battery life seemed to make this a no-brainer for me).

Wouldn't this "protection system" also shield the battery from damage from a parasitic draw (aka - Ducati engineering + probability that I will forget to take out the Ducati Data Analyzer after every track day, which is a known parasite)