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Signing over an empty title?

  1. #1
    Lifer
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    Signing over an empty title?

    What are my legal responsibilities in MA as the owner of bike during a sales transaction? I have someone who is interested in purchasing one of my bikes, but in all honestly told me that he wants to try it on a track day and if it is not for him he will sell it. Asked me to just sign the title but not fill out the purchase price and the other person name. He would do a bill of sales and give me the money for the bike. If I cancel my registration and insurance, I still have a nagging feeling that I am liable for the bike somehow unless he signs the title himself. Is that correct? He seems like an honest guy from the aspect of telling me exactly what he wants to do without intent of hiding anything. Thoughts? I researched the MA RMV and couldn't find enough details.

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  2. #2

    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Keep a signed by him bill of sale and you will be liability free. (even if there were any liability on you to begin with)

    If he doesn't want to sign a piece of paper that he bought the bike, that should be a red flag.

    Open title isn't unusual however. I've bought many vehicles and never put my name on the title and was either a passthrough owner or just never registered them.

    Liability is actually on his end for trying to be a passthrough owner (either illegal or at least frowned upon) and if for some reason the next owner after him has trouble registering a bike he sold them, such as whatever issue with the title etc, he can't help the new owner because the lineage of ownership would go back to you. You still wouldn't be liable to help but you'd be the last known person of legal contact. As far as the system is concerned he doesn't exist, which is why you'd need the bill of sale.

    Edit: *not a laywer, not sure on the actual legal part.

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    Last edited by Vovchandr; 08-01-21 at 10:03 AM.

  3. #3
    Being A Dick PurplePackage's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice!

    Anyway,

    >What are my legal responsibilities in MA as the owner of bike during a sales transaction?

    Seller: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter90D/Section15

    You need to

    "at the time of the delivery of the vehicle, execute an assignment including the actual odometer reading and warranty of title to the transferee in the space provided therefor on the certificate, or such other form as the registrar shall prescribe, and cause the certificate and assignment to be mailed or delivered to the transferee or to the registrar."

    but after that, (e)

    Except as provided in section sixteen and as between the parties, a transfer by an owner is not effective until the provisions of this section and section eighteen have been complied with; however, an owner who has delivered possession of the vehicle to the transferee and who has complied with the provisions of this section requiring action by him shall not be held liable in any manner whatsoever after delivery of possession of the vehicle for any damages resulting from operation of the vehicle, nor for any automobile law violation which may occur in such operation, even though no new certificate of title has been issued to the transferee.


    Buyer:
    https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...er90D/Section4

    >If I cancel my registration and insurance, I still have a nagging feeling that I am liable for the bike somehow unless he signs the title himself. Is that correct?

    See above. If you have signed the title and given the odometer reading, it is legally OK.

    >Thoughts?

    It all boils down to how much you trust the person. Peace of mind is worth tangible money, not words.



    >I researched the MA RMV and couldn't find enough details.

    They are the best at being the worst.

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  4. #4
    Lifer
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Thanks for the info- all good. At this point I lowered my price a few times so I’m sure I’ll find a buyer at some point. As much as a trust him I’ll do it the right way. That’s my gut feeling

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  5. #5

    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    I’m dying laughing at the disclaimers “I’m not a lawyer and this ain’t legal advice”.
    Like someone would have a case out of this scenario to take you to court and be like an anonymous member on an online forum told me I’m good to do XYZ.

    Anyways, a bill of sale clears you out of liability although there isn’t any really.

    Technically he’s committing fraud selling the vehicle without titling it over to himself. He’s avoiding sales tax and title fees and in a way impersonates you.

    Now if he uses the bike in a robbery and he dumps it and they run they vin and you’re the last legal owner in the system (wild scenario but possible) of course they will knock on your door and see what’s up, which at the time it will be handy to have a signed bill of sale, and some texts/communications, etc.

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  6. #6
    Being A Dick PurplePackage's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Like someone would have a case out of this scenario to take you to court and be like an anonymous member on an online forum told me I’m good to do XYZ.
    It's 2021. if something goes wrong regarding legal advice given there can be a malpractice suit. Consult an actual lawyer about posting legal advice online. Lawsuits can be filed in any state.

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  7. #7

    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurplePackage View Post
    It's 2021. if something goes wrong regarding legal advice given there can be a malpractice suit. Consult an actual lawyer about posting legal advice online. Lawsuits can be filed in any state.
    Agreed. You can sue anyone for anything. Question now: how you going to find who I am? Where I live? Most importantly prove that it was even me who gave you the “legal advice”?

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  8. #8
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Agreed. You can sue anyone for anything. Question now: how you going to find who I am? Where I live? Most importantly prove that it was even me who gave you the “legal advice”?
    It's not that hard...

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  9. #9
    WMC original sdog30's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    When I sold the Country Squire, I had never registered it. The guy tried driving it home and it broke down. He left it on the side of the road and it got impounded. Nazzo (the last registered owner maybe 8 years earlier) went to renew his license 6 months later and there was a hold on his account because of the camper being in a tow yard accumulating fees. It was a bit of a mess.

    I had to send a copy of the bill of sale to the tow yard and then it got transferred to that guys license. Besides that, I have bought bikes with an open title several times. Just incase I want to flip it instead. Also, you have limited time to get it titled (30 days I think) so it makes that easier if I'm not registering it right away. Seems like a common practice in mass.

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  10. #10
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Agreed. You can sue anyone for anything. Question now: how you going to find who I am? Where I live? Most importantly prove that it was even me who gave you the “legal advice”?
    2-3 days is about as long as it would take to find you.

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    It's not that hard...

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  11. #11
    Lifer
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by sdog30 View Post
    When I sold the Country Squire, I had never registered it. The guy tried driving it home and it broke down. He left it on the side of the road and it got impounded. Nazzo (the last registered owner maybe 8 years earlier) went to renew his license 6 months later and there was a hold on his account because of the camper being in a tow yard accumulating fees. It was a bit of a mess.

    I had to send a copy of the bill of sale to the tow yard and then it got transferred to that guys license. Besides that, I have bought bikes with an open title several times. Just incase I want to flip it instead. Also, you have limited time to get it titled (30 days I think) so it makes that easier if I'm not registering it right away. Seems like a common practice in mass.
    SO, basically, once I sign the title over and have my bill of sales the responsibility of the buyer is to register and title it within 30 days? Seems like even if it is not titled and I am the last titled owner, as long as I keep my bill of sales I should be ok? I'm struggling a little here...my gut says not to do it, but if it is a common practice maybe I should do it

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  12. #12
    no can kneedown feralchimp's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    As others have opined in a strictly informal capacity: Keep a signed/dated bill of sale and you're good enough.

    Include the odometer reading in the BoS text if you're concerned about any discrepancy when the bike is titled next. NBD.

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  13. #13
    WMC original sdog30's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Take a pic of his license with your cellphone, too.

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  14. #14
    Being A Dick PurplePackage's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by dankatz View Post
    SO, basically, once I sign the title over and have my bill of sales the responsibility of the buyer is to register and title it within 30 days? Seems like even if it is not titled and I am the last titled owner, as long as I keep my bill of sales I should be ok? I'm struggling a little here...my gut says not to do it, but if it is a common practice maybe I should do it
    To put it in the simplest terms, the minimum you must to to not be held liable for a bike sale in MA:
    sign your names, buyer and seller, in the correct spots on the title
    write the mileage in the correct spots on the title
    deliver (give) the vehicle and the signed title to the buyer.


    There is no lemon law for bikes in MA, so a bill of sale document is unnecessary for ownership transfer.
    You can not be held liable for anything that happens to the bike after these 3 things happen.
    Again, if you do these 3 things, everything else is ultimately the responsibility of the buyer.

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    Last edited by PurplePackage; 08-02-21 at 10:51 AM.

  15. #15

    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Just a word of advice whatever you decide.

    Bill of sale is pretty useless in official capacity as proof without VIN and date so make sure those things are present.

    If you are really paranoid also record the whole event of him signing things and taking the bike away.

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  16. #16
    Lifer
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurplePackage View Post
    To put it in the simplest terms, the minimum you must to to not be held liable for a bike sale in MA:
    sign your names, buyer and seller, in the correct spots on the title
    write the mileage in the correct spots on the title
    deliver (give) the vehicle and the signed title to the buyer.


    There is no lemon law for bikes in MA, so a bill of sale document is unnecessary for ownership transfer.
    You can not be held liable for anything that happens to the bike after these 3 things happen.
    Again, if you do these 3 things, everything else is ultimately the responsibility of the buyer.
    I think he would not want me to fill out the mileage on the title....

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  17. #17
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by dankatz View Post
    I think he would not want me to fill out the mileage on the title....
    To fully cya fill out the title completely and move on. If he's not OK with that, oh well. Everything else is shades of grey. Yes, it happens all the time, but if it's something that worries you there is only 1 way to guarantee the least amount of hassle if it goes sideways.

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  18. #18
    WMC original sdog30's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    It's really just a work around paying tax on it and having to buy a new title.

    I've bought and sold several cars and bikes this way, but as has been mentioned, the legal way is to fill the whole thing out. If you do two bills of sale, one fully filled out for your records and one blank with your signature for him, you should be covered and then they have the freedom to register it later or sell it to someone else.

    Definitely grey area though.

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  19. #19
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by dankatz View Post
    my gut says not to do it...
    That tells me all I need to know. Me? Nope, not a fuckin' chance. Unless it's a very close friend I'm not playing games like that. Here's everything filled out proper & signed, thankyouverymuch.

    But that's just me. I'm cynical by nature and trust a very limited number of people in my life. A potential buyer that I don't know wouldn't fall into that catagory.

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  20. #20
    Lifer OneCheekRider's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Californee doesn't do a lot right, but they at least have a way to release liability easily on vehicles. I fill out a quick online form (or snail-mail it) and boom the vehicle is no longer my problem. It's been a while but maybe there's a way to release liability with the Mass RMV/DMV either online, mail, or in person?

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  21. #21

    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Imagine this. A bike comes in the country and the manufacturer/dealer pays import fees and taxes.
    Then the bike is sold in the wonderful state of MA, for let’s say $20,000. The commonwealth collects $1250 of sales tax. Let’s not forget the $75 title fee and whatever registration is these days ($50?)
    The new owner bites the bullet because he always wanted a new bike. Roughly 2 months later he gets an excise bill tax for the new bike he just paid a shitton of fees on that is $5 for every $1000 of value at the 90% of the MSRP price of the bike.
    Now the bike turns out to be too fast for him and he has a few spooky moments and decides sport bikes aren’t for him and decides to sell the bike and cut his loses. So he lists the bike for $17,000. A buyer shows up and offers him $16,500 cash and he accepts. Now the new buyer has to pay sales tax on that bike for the price that he got it or the book value of the bike, WHICHEVER IS GREATER (because fuck you) and all the same fees, registration, title, etc. guess who gets an excise tax for 90% of the msrp value AGAIN. Our man keeps the bike for a good 10 years (of course paying his annual excise tax and registration as good citizen). Now that bike is nearly 11 years old. Our guy is tired of the aggressive sport position of the bike and decides to sell it and get a touring bike. Let’s say he sells it for $5000. Guess what? Another $312.50 in taxes, $50 registration and $75 title fee (and of course the excise tax at 10% of the msrp value for $5 per $1000).
    And that is why the government are worse than the Mafia.
    Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

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  22. #22
    Lifer OneCheekRider's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    And that is why the government are worse than the Mafia.
    Ugh. It drives me crazy how the gov demands a sales tax on used items. And if I keep certain vehicles long enough, the registration fees alone can exceed the purchase price.

    Hopefully they keep the honor system here by me for reporting purchases. It would be a shame if they started looking into all my $1 transactions

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  23. #23

    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Imagine this. A bike comes in the country and the manufacturer/dealer pays import fees and taxes.
    Then the bike is sold in the wonderful state of MA, for let’s say $20,000. The commonwealth collects $1250 of sales tax. Let’s not forget the $75 title fee and whatever registration is these days ($50?)
    The new owner bites the bullet because he always wanted a new bike. Roughly 2 months later he gets an excise bill tax for the new bike he just paid a shitton of fees on that is $5 for every $1000 of value at the 90% of the MSRP price of the bike.
    Now the bike turns out to be too fast for him and he has a few spooky moments and decides sport bikes aren’t for him and decides to sell the bike and cut his loses. So he lists the bike for $17,000. A buyer shows up and offers him $16,500 cash and he accepts. Now the new buyer has to pay sales tax on that bike for the price that he got it or the book value of the bike, WHICHEVER IS GREATER (because fuck you) and all the same fees, registration, title, etc. guess who gets an excise tax for 90% of the msrp value AGAIN. Our man keeps the bike for a good 10 years (of course paying his annual excise tax and registration as good citizen). Now that bike is nearly 11 years old. Our guy is tired of the aggressive sport position of the bike and decides to sell it and get a touring bike. Let’s say he sells it for $5000. Guess what? Another $312.50 in taxes, $50 registration and $75 title fee (and of course the excise tax at 10% of the msrp value for $5 per $1000).
    And that is why the government are worse than the Mafia.
    Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
    While all that's true and excise tax is quite silly in my opinion, it is called a sales tax, so all sales get taxed when the system isnt being frauded/cheated.

    If you truly don't agree with it you can always go to a state like NH which doesn't have sales tax to avoid it. It's not like this is some kind of trap. It's a self inflicted punishment by you if you live somewhere and have such strong opinions about the taxes there.

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  24. #24
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    You're paying one way or another. Try registering a new truck in NH and have them charge you $800 for the privilege. They get you there instead of calling it excise.

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  25. #25

    Re: Signing over an empty title?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    You're paying one way or another. Try registering a new truck in NH and have them charge you $800 for the privilege. They get you there instead of calling it excise.
    That's why there are more Bugatti's per Capita in Montana than any other state. Power of the LLC loophole.

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