Steering

[Polonius]

I was always practicing cornering every time I hit the road. I was always trying to avoid hitting the brakes after entering a curve to deep. I was also trying to avoid hitting the breaks at all as I approached a curve by downshifting and using the engine to slow me down. And if I got into a curve to hot or discovered that it got much sharper around the blind corner, I would try to remember to push harder down on the bar. Push left down harder and you will go sharper left. Focus through the curve to the apex and then to the exit. Right?

Then a knowledgeable and experienced riding companion asks me if I lean steer or counter steer. Well, after some contemplation, I indicate that I push down on the bar into the direction that I want to go. And if I am a track day, I try to sachey my ass over to the edge of the seat and lean my body over excessively while keeping the bike somewhat standupish for more braking points while defying death at a curve. Sounds good. Right?

Now this gentleman explains to me how to counter steer. Push right, go right. Now, thinking about the physical dynamics at play here. I am going to push the front wheel in the wrong or opposite direction that I am intending to turm. Right? Well, I stop trying to think and visualize and try it above 30 mph or so as suggested. Fuking AAAAAAA!!! It works. Now I sit up straight and the bike tilts undeneith me. It is less taxing then leaning and perhaps even a bit more controlling and comfortable. It almost feels safer and more confidence building. Just keep repeating until it is ingrainned. This is a righty coming up. Push right to go rignt. Right???

So I go along practicing this new fangled driving skill and feel confident until I slow down to take a left. You know, just an ordinary left purpendicular to the road I am riding. But then, I start thinking again. Wait a minute, push left to go left. But my mind gets a bit muddled and reminds me that if I do that, the front wheel will go right and I will fall off left. Right??? Wrong...

I wasn't speeding. However, I blew the simple corner. Perhaps, thinking is overrated.

Please people. Give me some soundoffs about these cornering alternatives.

Do you do it??? When??? Always??? Only above 20mph? Never?? What???

[jsven007]

I wasn't speeding. However, I blew the simple corner. Perhaps, thinking is overrated.

Please people. Give me some soundoffs about these cornering alternatives.

Do you do it??? When??? Always??? Only above 20mph? Never?? What???

Did you crash your bike? Hope things ok.

On the street I tend to do these:

1) Countersteer - Push left to go left, push right to go right
2) Pick a line - I line up towards the outside edge of a corner, and then I apex and stay near the centerline of road. The outside edge will allow a better view through the corner.
3) Look through the corner - look as far through the corner as possible.
4) Setup my body - I move slightly to the left or the right, but I don't hang off the bike like at the track. Sliding off will decrease the lean angle of the motorcycle.
5) Keep elbows bent - Bent elbows are good!

These techniques have worked for me.

Always go slower than you KNOW you can take the corner. If you go slower than you THINK you can take the corner, you will miss a corner someday! Or remember the saying "I am faster than you THINK you are."

[Rye]

I like what's being said........except one thing......You apex a corner on the street and you can become a hood ornament.....like I almost did into a Ram that took a wide corner (on the yellow) while I was apexing @ lean. I will now visualize an apex 2 ft. inside to have a bit more of a safe zone. I tapped the brakes lightly to straighten the bike up a bit and shot back over the bike to get clearance. It didn't bug me too much as it happened because I had a smidge of time for reaction. But when I got home I started to critique my riding and felt that taking a race line on the street is not very wise. I will still enter wide, but will be much more aware as I tighten an apex.

[Half Squid]

Originally posted by Rye
I like what's being said........except one thing......You apex a corner on the street and you can become a hood ornament.....like I almost did into a Ram that took a wide corner (on the yellow) while I was apexing @ lean. I will now visualize an apex 2 ft. inside to have a bit more of a safe zone. I tapped the brakes lightly to straighten the bike up a bit and shot back over the bike to get clearance. It didn't bug me too much as it happened because I had a smidge of time for reaction. But when I got home I started to critique my riding and felt that taking a race line on the street is not very wise. I will still enter wide, but will be much more aware as I tighten an apex.

Looked scary from where I was!

[Kham]

Originally posted by Rye
I like what's being said........except one thing......You apex a corner on the street and you can become a hood ornament.....like I almost did into a Ram that took a wide corner (on the yellow) while I was apexing @ lean. I will now visualize an apex 2 ft. inside to have a bit more of a safe zone. I tapped the brakes lightly to straighten the bike up a bit and shot back over the bike to get clearance. It didn't bug me too much as it happened because I had a smidge of time for reaction. But when I got home I started to critique my riding and felt that taking a race line on the street is not very wise. I will still enter wide, but will be much more aware as I tighten an apex.

Safe Line
The racing line above takes advantage of the special conditions of a racetrack: no oncoming traffic and guaranteed clean road conditions. Neither of these conditions is a safe bet on the street. The biggest shortcoming is that it has you near the inside edge of the curve (where there is oncoming traffic or a shoulder) at the apex, exactly where obstacles often creep into your lane.
The safe line for street riding is improved by "delaying the apex" - imagining the apex of the curve is somewhat farther into the curve than it really is. How much farther is something you'll feel through experience, but we mean 10-20%, not 50%.




The safe line means you will be somewhat deeper into the curve before you begin your turn. This has several advantages:

It extends your visibility through the curve even more.

The point where you begin turning (leaning) was visible when you entered the curve, so you will have time to change your plans if the road conditions are poor at that point.

The point at which you get closest to the oncoming lane is nearer the entrance (in a right turn) or exit (in a left), moving you away from the midpoint, where oncoming traffic is most likely to drift into your lane.

All of this, of course, assumes you have the bike under control, have slowed to an appropriate speed before entering the curve, and are adjusting to any special conditions (like weather, traffic, cows, and road conditions.)

by OSC Motorcycle Rider Course

[jsven007]

I never apex, not even a late apex, on right hand corners unless I can see through the corner. Sand always seems to crop up in the worst places. Not to mention parked cars, people walking, other debris.

When I was leading a ride, a rider went down apexing a right hand corner (hit sand). Sand is very common in right hand turns and I have heard many stories of riders going down in it.

On right hand corners, I pick a line close to the yellow line

[legalspeed]

Originally posted by Polonius
I wasn't speeding. However, I blew the simple corner. Perhaps, thinking is overrated.

Please people. Give me some soundoffs about these cornering alternatives.

Do you do it??? When??? Always??? Only above 20mph? Never?? What???

I've been on bikes for 29years (40 now first bike at 11). I coudn't tell you what I do, honestly.
I know in turn one at NHIS on my gix1k, I thought for sure we were going to blow the corner. I picked a pair of cones to go through, then I realized the bike was going to make it, so I ditched my out and rode through the corner, unscathed.
It's been so long it's instinct.

Be careful, take it slow at first, learn through experience and do what is natural. You are correct: thinking is over rated.

The techniques you recite are all good. Use what is comfy for you!

[Kham]

i may be missing something in this topic, but i how else do you turn? you just push on the handlebars which by definition means counter steer, right? i how harley riders do it, i imagine they do the same.

[legalspeed]

...but I can steer the bike without using the handlebars.

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by legalspeed
...but I can steer the bike without using the handlebars.

Keith Code says you can't:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/us/ma..._machine.shtml

But I dunno, some say his experiment is flawed.

[legalspeed]

I practice not using the handle bars.

There is a road into work here, it's about 5-7mi. of not-so-twisty twisties. I can do the whole length without using the handle bars.
I also have a throttle lock good to about 50mph, this maintains the 40mph I need on the road.

My wife used to get nervous when I did this, now after years and years of it she doesn't even think twice about it.

[Stoneman]

I'm no expert here, but I HAVE been riding for damn near 30 years. Almost half of that on the street...

But if you lean, you countersteer. They're two in the same. If you were leaning and you turned your bars the same direction as the turn, you'd flop over right on your face. Almost like driving yourself into the ground...

Try Dan's method in a very controlled environment. As your hands are off the bars, lean the bike just a bit. You'll notice that countersteering is taking place naturally. That's the result I saw when I've tried similar 'experiments'...

[Honclfibr]

5-7 miles of no handed turns? Damn...

[legalspeed]

Originally posted by Stoneman
As your hands are off the bars, lean the bike just a bit. You'll notice that countersteering is taking place naturally. That's the result I saw when I've tried similar 'experiments'...

[legalspeed]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
5-7 miles of no handed turns? Damn...

Yip, as long as no one else is on the road to make me change speeds.

I first tried this on a ten-speed in 1978 when my friend showed me he could ride without holding on.

Something I've not been able to do: steer in a wheelie. Ask a good stunter, maybe Brian_C6; you can steer while on one wheel, and we know the handle bars do nothing in that case.

Physics: your bike does not want to fall over when the wheels are rotating. It actually resists falling to one side or the other. This is due to gyroscopic effect.

[Kham]

Originally posted by Stoneman
I'm no expert here, but I HAVE been riding for damn near 30 years. Almost half of that on the street...

But if you lean, you countersteer. They're two in the same. If you were leaning and you turned your bars the same direction as the turn, you'd flop over right on your face. Almost like driving yourself into the ground...

Try Dan's method in a very controlled environment. As your hands are off the bars, lean the bike just a bit. You'll notice that countersteering is taking place naturally. That's the result I saw when I've tried similar 'experiments'...

if you jsut lean and dont push on the handlebar. isn't that "swoopy steer"?

still dont believe the "NO BS" bike?

[Honclfibr]

I gotta say, I'm a real big fan of physics. Physics wants to keep my bike from falling over. *I* want to keep my bike from falling over. It's win/win.

I don't know much about Keith Code's bike, maybe he locked the forks straight as well as mounting solid bars? Or maybe it's just that it's a kawasaki, everyone knows they can't turn in the first place

[Kham]

i gotta say after 30,40,50 years of riding and somebody proves you wrong, it's gotta be hard to swallow. pretty sure it happens all the time.

[Half Squid]

Countersteering does help in fast aggresive riding, I do it all the time, I dont even think about it now.

Most Corners you dont really need to do this, just lean the bike over. But for a quicker more defined cornering technique I do countersteer by pushing on the bar depending on the direction I am leaning. If I am leaning into a right hand turn I am pushing the throttle side on the bars out. A left hand corner I am pushing out on the clutch side on the bars. Try it going the speed limit into a semi hard corner to try it. once you have the feel for it see how it helps at quicker speeds. You will be amazed how quick this helps you carve into a corner.

Another good technique is getting of the bike and using your weight and moving the center of balance while cornering. It is very hard to get used to, but highly effective! For taking right hand corners you will get of the seat lean forward and to the side of the tank on the same side your cornering. Vice versa for left corners. I am just starting to really feel comfortable doing this. It takes a while to feel how much you have to lean out. Most people you see only lean off to the side of seat on the bike sticking out their knee, what you really should be doing is getting on the side of the gas tank, which is about 6-8 inches in front of your seat. You pretty much want to hug the side of the tank, not really get too far out off the side.
(I'm no expert either, but this feels very smooth and comfortable to me!)

my $0.02...

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by Half Squid
what you really should be doing is getting on the side of the gas tank, which is about 6-8 inches in front of your seat. You pretty much want to hug the side of the tank, not really get too far out off the side.
(I'm no expert either, but this feels very smooth and comfortable to me!)

I'm no expert either, Mike. But you've given a pretty good description. With the technique you mention, you almost want the tank in your armpit. Your arm should lay across the gas tank. 'Course, this probably isn't the way most of us should be riding on the street...

[RandyO]

the way I look at it, is if you have to think about steering, you haven't been riding enuf

[stoinkythepig]

While it's possible to steer with just body movements, I'd be willing to wager that very few of us could do that effectively on a twisty road, especially through a decreasing radius turn followed by a turn in the opposite direction.

When you "just lean the bike over" you are quite likely using "countersteering" to do so, even though you may not think so. The forces involved are quite small when you lazily take a corner at low to medium speeds (because the stability of the bike decreases with speed so gravity is giving you a lot of help getting the bike tipped). "Countersteering" really helps to bring the bike back up to vertical at the end of the curve. I have found that at low speeds there really is no other way to bring the bike back up from a decent lean angle without accelerating.

I hate the term: "countersteering", because it sounds like an alternative way to operate a bike. The reality is it's the only way to steer for 99.9% of riding/riders; many just don't know they are doing it.

[Kham]

throu my short riding experience, i must say i agree with the "NO BS BIKE" article about the acuracy of steering. since i got this new bike it's very uncomfortable and i find myself folding left arm and laying on the tank. sometimes i want to change lane i would move the upper part a little, or shift botton part but it would not respond quick enough. there's that 'lag' as mention in the article. sometimes i push on the bar for quick reaction.

i've found that hanging off the bike does help when going fast enough around the corner. it feels more stable. it must have offset some unbalance force but there's no way i can acurately steer without pushing on the bar. and if i go slow and hanging off the bike i feel real shitty.

[legalspeed]

Originally posted by stoinkythepig
While it's possible to steer with just body movements, I'd be willing to wager that very few of us could do that effectively on a twisty road, especially through a decreasing radius turn followed by a turn in the opposite direction.

It is actually hard to change the attitude of the bike with no- hands riding. After the apex, I have to flick the bike back up to vert. and then flick it over to the other side to complete the "S" curve.

You are right, this is not advice on how to become a better rider, I was just commenting that one can steer without adressing the handle bars.

And that leads me to a question I am now asking myself: Self? Just because I do up a fancy web site, does that make my hairbrained opinion a solid fact?
Want an example? How about the guy that holds up two pistons and says: "This one is from a friends bike, he followed the manuf. break in guidelines (piston is destroyed). See the other one, this is one from my bike(piston looks brand new), I rode it hard from the beginning." Yeah, right. Now how the hell is that a qualified scientific experiment? What was the ambient temp? Ambient humidity? What rpms were attained and for how long? Where is your control group? Was the same oil used in both? Was oil even used in both? What is your friends name? As you ask these pertinent questions, you begin to realize there are no numbers, or charts, or anything of substance to back their claims. that is when it becomes obvious they are only based in opinion.
A real benifit: Kevin Cameron's Sportbike Performance Handbook. This is filled with numbers, charts, hard facts, and a friggin bibliography so you can question the sources on what he has claimed. Great book BTW.

[Half Squid]

Originally posted by Stoneman
, this probably isn't the way most of us should be riding on the street...

Oh I never do this style riding on the street! Thats a technique for speeds over most posted limits! I always obey posted speeds, in fact I bet 99% of the people here can say the same. There are a rare few here on the site that have received Certificates of excellence for being able to break these posted limits! They only did this because they were late and their kitchen pass was just about expired for the night!