Been too long since I’ve seen a good helmet thread. Did not disappoint.
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Been too long since I’ve seen a good helmet thread. Did not disappoint.
A good helmet will have a DOT sticker. But that definitely does not mean that a helmet with a DOT sticker is good.
Which standards race and TD orgs look to is definitely interesting to me, even for street lids.
Something has been bugging me about helmet discussions lately. Where is the data saying that fit is the most important part of helmet safety? I'm calling BS. As long as the helmet isn't too loose, it will be just as safe as any other shape, shell size, padding thickness, etc. I think some brick and mortar shops that do custom fitting as a sales pitch have really oversold this message.
Sure a custom fit helmet with the correct shape for your head is more comfy, but it is not safer than a tight, ill fitting lid.
Yes, there is some truth to your comment. We would need a randomized, blinded controlled trial where ill-fitting vs good fitting helmets are compared. That being said, it does make sense that one would not want any pressure points as they will likely unevenly will distribute the impact. In any case, I agree it is likely overblown. Most are intermediate oval and unless you jump a whole category you should be fine. I just mentioned the fit issue because until I got properly evaluated I didn't realize I was long oval. Not all "intermediate-oval" helmets fit me well, but some do. The round ones definitely do not fit me well.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it among the talk of DOT and Snell ratings, but much of what I've read suggests that the ECE 22.05 rating (the European standard) is the best-of-both-worlds option, resulting in helmets that withstand sharp hits very well while transmitting fewer G-forces to the rider's brain than Snell helmets. I'm not interested in arguing the point, just saying I've read this on numerous occasions.
As such, it's worth looking at some of the Euro brands. I've been wearing Shark helmets for years because they fit my head the best of all helmets I've tried. I did try on a Shoei RF1200 once and it fit well too, so my guess is Sharks would fit you well. In my opinion Sharks are every bit as nice as Shoeis but cost significantly less.
AGV would be worth looking at as well. They have quite a few helmets in your price range, but I've never tried any of them so can't speak to their shape or fit and finish.
Probably also worth taking a look at Nexx; they tend to be a little pricier, but they're one of the most innovative helmet companies out there. And their fit is very flexible because the helmets come with a pad kit to customize the fit.
--mark
There are a limited number of studies. The most recent and most comprehensive is the [European] MAIDS 2 study.
The issues are more fundamental than fit. Two thirds of those surveyed were wearing full face helmets. But a substantial number of those wearing helmets (of all types) had failed to secure them, so they came off! So the real-world data is not as cut-and-dried as one would hope, while testing standards may not reflect real-world impacts: that is precisely the objection to the Snell ratings.
One would think helmet manufacturers would include all the agency certifications. But if you buy an Arai in the US it has DOT and Snell M or SA ratings only, even though the same helmet is sold in Europe with SHARP and ECU ratings.
The SHARP standard has additional tests and gives 1-5 star ratings, versus Pass/Fail for DOT and Snell. But in most cases you can’t reference it. I think the helmet manufacturers want to limit sales across markets.
I think the ECE rating gives me the warmest, fuzziest feeling inside. But I'm not about to order helmets from overseas or anything like that.
What I am on the fence about is plastic (polycarbonate) helmets that have ECE or SNELL ratings. My gut tells me plastic is no good. The ratings make me rethink that. (Ie Bell MX-9 MIPS)
Or helmets that have features I really want, but are only DOT rated. (Ie pre-MIPS MX-9)
First, based in my reading (a link below) ECE is actually the lowest standard available and not even used in this country. An ECE helmet would not likely pass DoT and never pass snell without additional protection
I would be careful saying snell allows more g force to transfer than DoT (debunked also in link below), I have only heard that from second hand sources but every motorcycle based org (msf) will usually say that at worst snell and dot are the same, and at best a 2015 small rating is superior. Some people may cherry pick they 2005 rating, but literally no one should be using a 13-8 year old helmet anyway. It's not like we had heaps of dead racers in that period either, so they may have been marginally worse at best. I have only heard that that was a myth and based on peoples assumptions without understanding how they test helmets. Snell will test high and low energy impacts, both are required to be lower than DoT.
My issue with DoT is it is a self test, meaning you cant buy from new brands you don't know, because if they only ever sold 10 helmets and never tested them, no one is going to call them out. Snell requires them to test before it hits the market and retests production models so you are promised some level of safety by the sticker alone, unlike DoT, which will give out stickers without testing. That and the chin bar not being tested on DoT makes me look for the extra sticker, I think like 40% of crashes impact the chin bar first
I also dont believe you can sell a real motorcycle helmet in the USA without it passing DoT, even if it is snell, so the idea that a snell helmet would transfer more g force than DoT, and therefore not meet minimum us standards seems fishy to me. Add to the fact that snell tests helmets with more consecutive drops from higher heights and on a wider variety of anvil shapes and I seriously doubt that is true today. Edir: After reading some more I found this revzilla article talking about how ece standards are actually the lowest for energy transfer due to anvil shapes, and has required strike points, meaning they can only test in certain places, while DoT can test the helmet anywhere they want so no gaming the system Helmet Safety Ratings 101
I bought an agv for my gf. I was happy with it when I bought it, but at twice the price of my hjc without a snell rating, and I would recommend hjc over them. The fit and finish were surprising, the helmet almost felt like a novelty with the shell notably loose over the foam, and they use the good ol one size shell so not much value there. I feel bad saying it because it's the rossi replica (could be some of the quality problem) and she really likes it, but as my primary helmet I would look at hjc first and skip agv, they are good helmets but not as good as the top brands and not as good of a value as an hjc
I have been running HJC helmets on the street for many years now and have raced the FG-17 for the last 5 as well as having another FG-17 as a dedicated street lid as well. Give em a solid look. GL.
Don't need to. Plenty of ECE-rated helmets are sold here. Basically all of the Euro brands.
Polycarbonate shells are cheaper to produce, obviously; composite shells can be customized more for stiffness or flex in certain areas based on the weave of the fiberglass or carbon fiber. But ultimately the shell primarily provides penetration protection -- the EPS liner is the most critical for impact protection and reduction of g-forces transmitted to the rider's head. So with a well-designed EPS liner, there's no reason a polycarbonate shell couldn't perform well.
Generally speaking I agree with you, and for my main helmet I make a point of buying one with a composite shell. But I will make exceptions for non-daily-wear helmets -- for example, I just ordered a Scorpion ADV helmet that uses a polycarbonate shell. My Shark will still be my main helmet, but it'll be nice having the Scorpion around for dirt road riding and maybe commuting.
This flies in the face of everything else I've ever read, and isn't supported by the link you shared. It's "not even used in this country" because it's the European standard, but there are many helmets available for sale in the US that are both DOT and ECE rated. Furthermore, from what I've read, there are quite a few helmets that meet DOT, ECE, and Snell requirements, but are not labeled with all three depending on the market they're being sold in -- for North America, they may be labeled DOT and Snell only, and for Europe the same helmet may be labeled ECE (and possibly SHARP, which is relatively new).
True, Snell improved their testing/ratings after the flak they got from the 2005 Motorcyclist magazine "Blowing the Lid Off" article -- link to a copy of that article here: Motorcycle Helmet Performance: Blowing the Lid Off
But the 2005 standard continued to be used until 2012, so it remained important information for a lot longer than should have been necessary. Luckily at this point all of the Snell M2005 helmets ought to be out of circulation.
Read the "Blowing the Lid Off" article. Interesting stuff. Not relevant to current standards, thankfully, but this article is the main reason for that.
--mark
I've got a massive melon, and most helmets don't fit me well. I found the Arai (Vector II, or whatever is has evolved into now) fit me the best. It's going to be a bit above your budget, but you may get somewhat close by shopping close-outs and left overs. It's very quiet, vents well, fits right.
At the <$300 price point I would be looking at HJC, Bell, and Scorpion. HJC first as they seem to have the best balance of quality and features. Their FG/CL-17 is touch to beat if the fit is right. I only go for SNELL as its what gives me confidence in providing me with safety. I've owned both those as secondary lids. My primary lids have been Arai, Shoei, and HJC RPHA 11 (which I just got but haven't used). I've highsided both my Arais and came out unscratched. The RPHA is the first helmet that I've owned without SNELL rating, but it is ECE rated. Enough racers both on national and pro level use it as their race lid that I'm good with it.
Helmet safety ratings are a good baseline of information, but I wouldn't get too hung up on it. It's kind of like NHTSA trash test ratings. Certain things like low inertia skew the results. A 5-star rated Honda Fit might fare better than a 2-star Silverado when crashing into a wall, but head on the two together at 30 mph and see who comes out in better shape. Do any of the current testing for helmets even accurately consider things like MIPS?
I had in the past read articles and got from them basic ideas.
That I think snell tests multiple impacts, so foam is stiffer. The stiffer foam transmits a lot more shock and supposedly in most
motorcycle hits, the first hit to the pavement is the only damaging head impact. Cheaper softer foam lessons this one damaging impact.
Polycarbonate is wonderful stuff and is "bulletproof glass" Obviously thickness is strength
I am pleased with the responses that most of the upper models of lower tier helmet makers seem to have satisfied customers
with HJC getting most votes
The real job of full faced helmets is to make the undertakers job easier, just kidding
I doubt a study has been done. But the case for fit being the most important factor (assuming the helmet meets safety standards to begin with) stands up to reason.
- A helmet that is uncomfortable will distract the rider. IMHO that reduces safety because if you're thinking about your comfort, you're not focusing on riding the bike.
- A helmet that's the wrong shape will prompt the rider to go up a size to avoid pressure points. That means it may wind up being too loose overall.
Point is that a helmet's inherent ability to absorb impact is not related to fit. However, fit DOES arguably have an impact on overall safety. This is obvious.... a helmet that's far too big can't do its job, right? A helmet that's snug but fits poorly also has an impact... just a different one.
Re safety standards... the biggest issue as I see it is that it's impossible to deal with every possible crash scenario. There's no such thing as a generic impact. Testing standards by definition anticipate a given set of conditions and cannot cover everything. What about material properties at different temperatures? What about angle of impact? Resistance to abrasion? Sharp vs. blunt object impact? Rotational force? Direction of impact? The variables go on and on. Arai makes a big deal of its helmets being rounded so nothing can catch and wrench the rider's neck. Is there actual data to support that? The argument sounds good but is it supported by data?
A good, safe helmet built to one standard may fail a different standard, simply because they're being tested differently. The debate can go around and around about what's "best" but it's all a compromise.
FYI there seems to be an assumption that Snell requires full face helmets. They do not. Arai and Shoei both make Snell M2015-approved helmets, and there are quite a few SA2015 helmets (car spec)*.
Not condoning them, but the standard does not require full face.
* There is a switch back to 3/4 helmets for cars because they believe access to the airway is critical.
I'm willing to bet that is the same helmet as my MSR with different brand tag, I got as a closeout at Whitehorse Gear for $75, the same helmet was tagged with at least one other brand as well, iirc.
It replaces my Shoei TZR, my only complaint, is that it does not work the greatest in cold (by my standards, I think my only solution there is a high end snowmobile helmet)
https://e.ridersdiscount.com/generat..._1000_1000.jpg
There are SNELL helmets that are non full face? As far as I know it is a requirement. There are not even SNELL helmets that are modular because it could pop open in a crash. So I dont see how non full face helmets would be SNELL?
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
FWIW. Most of those ADV style helmets are designed to flow a ton of air at low speeds. No, I would never expect one to do well in the cold, ever. Looking at the photo you posted I see 4 large ports on the back that cannot be closed. I'm sure the front is no different.
Your use is definitely not their design goal!
This is my capt. obvious post for the day..