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Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

  1. #1
    xxaarraa
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    Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt


    OK, putting on some protection on the new bike. Previous owner handed me unmounted frame sliders. Pretty straight forward as far as frame sliders go, two engine mount bolts come out, new frame slider bolts go on, pucks, trim covers for pucks.



    However, PO mentioned that when he tried to put one of the bolts in (the longer one, assuming the left/ECU side), he stripped the threads.



    So he abandoned the project and just put the original engine bolts back on.

    My questions -

    • Safe to assume that the threads inside my engine are now stripped? The original engine bolts went back in fine since they don't go as deep?
    • Should I run a tap through the engine to clean up the threads? Tapping the frame mount of an engine makes me nervous.
    • Should I retap the threads on the bolt and re-use? Or find a new clean bolt instead? I don't have my spare hardware case with me right now, but it looks very similar to a front brake caliper bolt.


    Thanks guys.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 07-19-17 at 12:10 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member capitalcrew's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Looks like the tip of the bolt was the issue. Most likely the engine moved when the original bolt came out and he tried to install it and it cross threaded and pulled the first 3-4 threads out. Lucky he got the original back in.

    That bolt you've got is full of aluminum, if you can get it all out then it's fine, if not find a new one. Make sure when you do this that the hole from the frame to the engine is lined up properly and make sure you start it straight, it'll be fine. Spin it in by hand not with a wrench.

    No taps should be needed, just a little extra caution and maybe a new bolt.

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  3. #3
    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Maybe try and chase the threads first?


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    Isaac LRRS/CCS #871 ECK Racing | Spears Enterprises | GMD Computrack Boston | Pine Motorparts/PBE Specialists | Woodcraft | Street & Competition | MTag-Pirelli | OnTrack Media
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  4. #4
    Senior Member capitalcrew's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    The original bolt already did that, no reason to run a tap down it if the original bolt went in fine

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  5. #5
    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    A tap isn't going to do much of anything since material has been removed from the engine threads and a die isn't necessary since the bolt wasn't damaged by the aluminum.

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  6. #6
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    I'd personally be pulling the existing bolt carefully and seeing how many turns it engages on. If it's not many, consider a thread repair insert of some flavor on that mount. What sucks is to do that right you'll have to drop the motor enough to get to the mounting point directly. You wanted to check your valves and swap the exhaust, samco hose kit, velocity stacks, wiring harness pruning, etc anyways, right?

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  7. #7
    Senior Member capitalcrew's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    If you're dropping the motor might as well get it filled in with weld and redrilled and tapped. Those thread inserts suck.

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  8. #8
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Depends on the insert, done properly they are stronger than the base thread they repaired.

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  9. #9
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    You wanted to check your valves and swap the exhaust, samco hose kit, velocity stacks, wiring harness pruning, etc anyways, right?
    ehh no! I am leaving this bike alone; "gas n' go" is the new philosophy. Besides, I thought you guys always said Japanese bikes did not need any maintenance till like 26k miles or something ridiculous like that.

    OK I will pull the existing engine bolt and carefully thread it back in and see whatsup. If it comes and goes smoothly, I will re-tap this slider bolt and try and insert it back in carefully. I am hoping this is not going to turn into a science project.

    Agree with capital crew - engine moved on PO causing him to strip bolt. I will be careful and line up the engine with the mount before inserting anything.

    Lining up the hole is super important prior to insertion

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 07-19-17 at 12:03 PM.

  10. #10
    TRACK RAT!!!!! Pigman's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Ehhhh....I have pulled way worse. Just throw some locktight on it and throw it on......its really not going to make a diff.

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  11. #11
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    I have thread-cleaning taps & dies and regular (i.e., cutting) taps & dies if you need to borrow 'em.

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    '02 Ducati 998, '08 Ducati HyperMotard 1100S, '14 Subaru XV Crosstrek

  12. #12
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    I have thread-cleaning taps & dies and regular (i.e., cutting) taps & dies if you need to borrow 'em.
    Damn Number9, I didn't know about "thread chasers"

    I have a tap and die set I have used often:
    IRWIN Tools Metric Tap and Hex Die Set, 41-Piece (26317) - - Amazon.com

    But upon reading, it seems tapping takes off more threads whereas a chaser like you mentioned simply cleans up the threads? If so, I like that idea a lot.

    Any recommendations on which one?

    Cheapest option:
    Amazon.com: Lang Tools 2581 26-Piece Thread Restorer Tap and Die Set: Automotive

    Mid-level:
    Amazon.com: Lang 972 40 Piece Fractional and Metric Thread Restorer Kit: Automotive

    Expensive:
    Amazon.com: CTA Tools 8240 Universal 53-Piece Rethreading Set: Automotive

    Really appreciate the offer to let me borrow yours. I may take you up on that. Figured it's useful to bite the bullet and get one of these kits for the garage.

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  13. #13
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Damn Number9, I didn't know about "thread chasers"

    I have a tap and die set I have used often:
    IRWIN Tools Metric Tap and Hex Die Set, 41-Piece (26317) - - Amazon.com

    But upon reading, it seems tapping takes off more threads whereas a chaser like you mentioned simply cleans up the threads? If so, I like that idea a lot.
    Yep, that's a pretty good description of them. I learned about them (and used them) on my El Camino project. They come in pretty handy! Especially with aluminum thread inserts where a rethreading/chasing tap or die is often enough to fix the problem.

    I've used them on the VFR once (can't remember why..) and on the Porsche once (saved a $400 alternator.)

    Any recommendations on which one?

    Cheapest option:
    Amazon.com: Lang Tools 2581 26-Piece Thread Restorer Tap and Die Set: Automotive

    Mid-level:
    Amazon.com: Lang 972 40 Piece Fractional and Metric Thread Restorer Kit: Automotive

    Expensive:
    Amazon.com: CTA Tools 8240 Universal 53-Piece Rethreading Set: Automotive

    Really appreciate the offer to let me borrow yours. I may take you up on that. Figured it's useful to bite the bullet and get one of these kits for the garage.
    I don't have any eperience with those brands, but the reviews all look decent. I think the cheapest option is probably fine -- I would be more inclined to say you need to spend money on cutting taps & dies, as chasing taps & dies have less work to do.

    I got this Craftsman kit from Sears. I had to call one or two malls to find it in stock, though!

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    Last edited by number9; 07-19-17 at 01:08 PM.
    '02 Ducati 998, '08 Ducati HyperMotard 1100S, '14 Subaru XV Crosstrek

  14. #14
    Day late, dollar short carsick's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    The cheapest option is not metric, probably not useful to you.
    The middle one I have the Snap-On version of (bet they are made by the same off brand, frequently KD tools or something). I use the gold metric pieces all the time, never touch the black and silver inch coarse and fine. I do wish I had the extra metric pieces that the most expensive one has, I imagine there is a metric only set somewhere out there. I use the thread files ALL the time. They are awesome.
    If you could buy the Craftsman one #9 linked, it would be great if they warranty them. You will make some mistakes until you get a feel for how much they'll take.

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  15. #15
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    OK, I have an update. Bought the thread chaser kit and gave it a go. I think I'm in a good place temporarily, but want you guys to confirm.

    I first confirmed that the thread in question is a 12x1.25 (nifty tool is from my tap and die set)



    I cleaned up the aluminum from the LSL frame slider bolt with the thread file (carsick you were right, it is very useful) and the provided thread cleanup nut.



    Then I backed out the original engine bolt. Not good news. This bolt has also been cross threaded at the very end and taken off more aluminum from the threads on the engine mount.



    I ran the thread chaser through the engine mount, but it was a little short, so I imagine it didn't reach way deep where the threads were actually damaged.



    So here is where the story gets iffy. I sent the long LSL bolt through with the frame slider. It went tight, then started spinning after a certain point. I pulled it back out, and it came out clean, i.e., it didn't take off any more metal from the engine threads.



    However, this means that the last few threads inside my engine are shot. Correct?

    So I proceeded to just use a few washers to take up the 'slack' on the bolt, and it tightened fine. I even used a torque wrench and was able to tighten to 40 ft-lbs (recommended torque value I believe) and it held and did not break free or spin.



    So what's the bottom line? Last few threads inside engine are stripped, but using a few washers, I was able to mount the frame slider and snug up to 40 ft-lbs. Am I OK for now? I imagine when I go down again and want to replace the slider puck, I will have to go through this again possibly. If I were to 'fix' this, where do I go next? Just tap the engine mount one size bigger and use a different bolt? Helicoil?

    And how do I get the engine to align right next time? Can I jack up gently on the oil pan or somewhere else to get it to line up?

    So I then tried to clean up the original engine bolt for future use. Carsick, you were right again. The thread chaser nut broke I need to call Amazon/manufacturer and see if they would send me just the 12x1.25 nut which is doubtful.


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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 07-23-17 at 01:42 PM.

  16. #16
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Ouch. So, #1 don't worry about the thread cleaner nut, if you get a free replacement cool but the thread file is where the real magic happens. Alternatively, a stainless steel wire wheel in a bench grinder will get that aluminum out of a bolt nicely too. Just wear gloves and safety glasses 'cause those babies love to throw wires.

    #2, I'm a little confused on what happens when you thread a bolt in. You say if you use washers to shorten how much bolt goes into the motor it'll torque up, but if you let it thread further in it spins? Something doesn't add up there. I wonder if what you're feeling is a patch of crusty thread cleaning up? When it 'spins' is it all the way threaded in at that point or still visually more turns to go?

    #3, how many turns do you get when you thread the current bolt with washer stack on it?

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  17. #17
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon

    #2, I'm a little confused on what happens when you thread a bolt in. You say if you use washers to shorten how much bolt goes into the motor it'll torque up, but if you let it thread further in it spins? Something doesn't add up there. I wonder if what you're feeling is a patch of crusty thread cleaning up? When it 'spins' is it all the way threaded in at that point or still visually more turns to go?
    If I use the long bolt provided by LSL as is, with no washers, it will tighten up to a certain point, then start to spin freely. The frame slider will dangle, so obviously the bolt needs to go in further. If I were to guess how many turns further, I'd say 3-4 turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon
    #3, how many turns do you get when you thread the current bolt with washer stack on it?
    I didn't count exactly how many turns, but it goes in pretty deep. I only used 3 (or was it 4?) of the copper washers pictured (ignore the conical spacer in the photo, I didn't use it).



    The washer stack is about the same 'distance' as the stripped threads. So am I correct in surmising that the last few threads in engine are stripped, and as long as I stay just inside the last few threads, I am OK?

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  18. #18
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Once the bolt is in threads, it can't later spin free without ripping up ALL the threads it's already in. So if you're threading that bolt in 3/4 of the way, and THEN it breaks free, that would mean that the first 3/4 of the bolt hole is stripped, not the bottom portion. You can simulate this with a nut. The nut is just like a bolt hole where the bottom threads are stripped, but the first few are good. Thread a bolt into the nut, then keep going so the bolt is threading into the 'stripped' area. Note the bolt doesn't suddenly stop threading. The threads near the bottom of the hole could indeed be fubar, but that should result in the bolt not wanting to thread into them before it bottoms out against the frame/slider. If you got at least 6 full turns on that bolt into threads, it'll likely hold but is much more likely to do damage if you crash with that slider mounted.

    Further nitpick on that slider, the bolt they supply doesn't have a shoulder for the frame to locate against, unlike the OEM bolt.

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  19. #19
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    Once the bolt is in threads, it can't later spin free without ripping up ALL the threads it's already in. So if you're threading that bolt in 3/4 of the way, and THEN it breaks free, that would mean that the first 3/4 of the bolt hole is stripped, not the bottom portion. You can simulate this with a nut. The nut is just like a bolt hole where the bottom threads are stripped, but the first few are good. Thread a bolt into the nut, then keep going so the bolt is threading into the 'stripped' area. Note the bolt doesn't suddenly stop threading. The threads near the bottom of the hole could indeed be fubar, but that should result in the bolt not wanting to thread into them before it bottoms out against the frame/slider. If you got at least 6 full turns on that bolt into threads, it'll likely hold but is much more likely to do damage if you crash with that slider mounted.

    Further nitpick on that slider, the bolt they supply doesn't have a shoulder for the frame to locate against, unlike the OEM bolt.
    The LSL bolt does go through an aluminum collar/spacer that sits inside the slider.

    I see what you are saying. But how can we explain the full bolt threading in and breaking free, but with a washer stack it threads in and stays threaded???

    Should I just bite the bullet and tap one size bigger or helicoil? But I don't want to go there till I can make sure the engine is perfectly aligned with the hole. How can I do that without an engine hoist??

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 07-23-17 at 02:07 PM.

  20. #20
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    I always use a floor jack to align a motor in the frame. and usually an assistant cause you need hands on both sides to get it perfect. I would think, like Kurlon, that all the threads are jacked. But if you got 40 ft/lbs that's decent. How did the chase feel? wobbly? The way to chase threads deeper is to file a longitudinal cut in the threads of the correct sized bolt, and thread it in all the way.

    This whole scenario sucks. Sorry man. At some point I'd probably drop the engine and have a pro install timeserts. Might as well build a 220hp beast at that point... LOL

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  21. #21
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Yeah, there isn't a good way to repair the threads with the motor in the frame, to do so you need to run a larger drill bit and then an even larger tap through, which you can't without mucking up the frame. So at some point, the motor is coming out.

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  22. #22
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D
    I always use a floor jack to align a motor in the frame. and usually an assistant cause you need hands on both sides to get it perfect. I would think, like Kurlon, that all the threads are jacked. But if you got 40 ft/lbs that's decent. How did the chase feel? wobbly? The way to chase threads deeper is to file a longitudinal cut in the threads of the correct sized bolt, and thread it in all the way.
    Good tip on chasing deep threads, I will keep that trick handy for future. Chase felt OK. It was a bit wobbly to start, but then tightened up and held to 40 ft-lbs. I was texting with Kurlon also, and most likely what I think is happening is that the bottom (end) 4 threads in the engine are gone. The top 6-8 threads are OK. If I use a bolt that's very long, it threads right through and starts spinning when it hits the bottom threads. If I use a washer stack to limit the bolt travel to just the good threads, it works.

    For now I am going to leave it. If I crash again on the left side and go to replace the slider puck, I will see the situation and then decide whether to drop the motor. I may be able to just get by with the 6-8 threads that are still good (fingers crossed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D
    Might as well build a 220hp beast at that point... LOL
    ha! I don't know how much power stock R1s make, but this thing is already such an animal even in Power Mode C. The torque hits so hard that it feels like a huge Vtwin. Being a long time Vtwin guy, I like a rather snatchy throttle. So I am quite OK with the R1 as is, don't need any more power!

    I am not sure if it's the crossplane crank or whatever, but this does NOT feel like the stereotypical inline 4. In fact, I swapped bikes with a buddy at NYST and drove his HP4 back to back with the R1. The HP4 felt totally gutless (relatively speaking of course) down low and I had to be in 5th gear going through the same corners the R1 would do in 3rd (he was geared -1/+2 also) or rev the nuts off of it I suppose.

    I do plan on reflashing it and loading a base unrestricted map (supposedly adds ~10 hp), and if it also smoothens out Power Modes A and B, that would be a bonus. But flash is mostly for the blipper, and I will be fine in Power Mode C for a long time!

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 07-24-17 at 08:33 AM.

  23. #23
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    The threads bad at the bottom so it spins loose after threading in cleanly idea doesn't fly with me, but not being on hand to monkey with it myself I don't have a good explanation to fit what he's describing.

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  24. #24
    Senior Member capitalcrew's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Yeah that doesn't make any sense to me at all. It would only be possible if the neck of the bolt was smaller than the minor diameter of the threads, and it clearly isn't based on pictures.

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  25. #25
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Thoughts needed on stripped frame slider engine bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    The threads bad at the bottom so it spins loose after threading in cleanly idea doesn't fly with me, but not being on hand to monkey with it myself I don't have a good explanation to fit what he's describing.
    Quote Originally Posted by capitalcrew View Post
    Yeah that doesn't make any sense to me at all. It would only be possible if the neck of the bolt was smaller than the minor diameter of the threads, and it clearly isn't based on pictures.
    What you guys are saying worries me. So what possible explanation could there be for long bolt spinning free but when adjusted with washer stack it tightens fine? Every time I pulled the bolt out even after it spun free, it came out clean, so I know I am not mucking up any more threads than the ones already damaged.

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