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Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

  1. #476
    Senior Member ducatirdr's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I have owned a KTM 350EXC-F, 701, 890 Rally. The 890 is the best all around motorcycle. If I only could own one bike it would be that 890. I can have a blast with it in the woods while respecting its limits. While I am no Graham Jarvis, I do ride the piss out of it in the woods. Steep and loose hills are its weakness. On the road it's like a supermoto or a relaxing commuter or loaded touring bike.

    The 350 was more fun for enduro but i was always trying to make it lighter. Its a top heavy bike like all four strokes. Also walk into a dealer and lift the rear wheel of a 300 TPI by grabbing the rear fender support and lifting. Then find a 350/500 EXC-F and try the same thing. WTF those weights are not that close are they. Also you need to be taller than I am to have the range of motion to lift the 350/500 rear off the ground. These bikes are still too big to be the ideal tool off road and they SUCK on the street. Sure they move and can do the speeds. But they are the most uncomfortable bikes for any sustained ride on the street. Yes you can add a bigger seat but now you are cutting into the benefit of their off road narrow seat.

    The 690/701 are the worst of both worlds. Heavy and uncomfortable.

    Get a modern 2t and ride it once in the woods and it's a cheater compared to any 4t powered bike.

    Get a 890 or T7 and you have a street bike that can do tons of miles and also get dirty and have fun in the woods. You can ride them just like a 690/701 and have the same thrills as a 350/500 on trails that are suited for them. Then purchase a 2 stroke for real enduro and plate it and go ride Netra events with it hauling it there with a truck or trailer.

    The Honda 300L Rally I took for a ride recently is a great candidate for someone with no off road background. Lighter and lower to the ground making it the easiest to ride. It's not going to set the world on fire with its power but that tractor motor is great for a person not familiar with sliding the rear on corners. I think more advanced riders would ride an 890/T7 at the same pace as the Honda 300.

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    Last edited by ducatirdr; 03-09-22 at 08:09 AM.
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  2. #477
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I'm not really into single track or woods only riding. I personally enjoy the pavement side of dual sporting as well. And it'd be extremely inconvenient to have to cart a bike around everywhere just to ride, when I can already ride right out of my garage to the local class 6 roads.

    Yes, dual sports are intrinsically compromised, but that is their nature. They do everything competently, but no one thing fantastically. It's the fact that they are so well-rounded and have so many use cases that appeals to me the most; they're fun whether they are on pavement, trails or just commuting back and forth.

    And while big adventure bikes are certainly wonderful and have their place, the wild weather the past year has significantly changed the difficulty level of the class 6 roads in my area. So many are so utterly washed out that if they haven't been closed altogether, the ability to get through on a 500+lb adventure bike and still have fun doing it has been greatly diminished. Just ask the attendees of NEAR what they thought of bringing big bikes this year (I live ~5 miles away from F&F and use pretty much all the same roads their rides are on). I would bet most wished they had small dual sports.

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  3. #478
    Senior Member ducatirdr's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    SRTie4k - Your point on being able to ride tight single track near your home is a GREAT point for the small DS bikes. I miss my 350 for that reason. If I had the room in the garage....

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  4. #479
    Lifer
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I know ya'll have heard this before and are probably going to lol on this, but I'm getting serious about an ADV bike again. I really miss having an ADV'er as I think they are the ultimate New England motorcycle. I want a bike that will go 2-3 hours on the slab to a campsite loaded with gear for 2-3 nights of tenting. Drop off and do NEBDR type poop. Then carve some twisties and then head home. You know, it all!

    At this point I'm convinced a 300L/Rally is just too small for the job. I don't think I'd be comfortable or happy with it. I am just not excited about a thumper/dual-sport. I want a better version of my old V-Strom 650.

    The top two contenders have been the T7 and KTM 890. At this point I'm very strongly considering throwing some caution to the wind and putting a deposit down on a brand new 890 ADV-R, if I can find one. I want the sexy brakes and sexy suspension. I like the greater range and lower center of gravity. And I sure don't mind the idea of moar powah. An 890 ADV-R is overkill for my rider skill; a T7 or even a used F800GS would probably be more than enough. But screw-it, I want the bling! We may be about to go down in a thermonuclear nightmare. Might as well go out having some fun.

    I thought I had finance committee sign off to go N+1. After plugging it into the budget it seems that sign-off wasn't quite as solid as I thought. Which honestly is understandable. I'm now strongly considering flipping my Harley Road King to sweeten the deal. KBB trade is $11,325. KBB list is like $15k. If I could walk away from that bike for ~$12k the finance committee and I would be perfectly happy.

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  5. #480
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I know ya'll have heard this before and are probably going to lol on this, but I'm getting serious about an ADV bike again. I really miss having an ADV'er as I think they are the ultimate New England motorcycle. I want a bike that will go 2-3 hours on the slab to a campsite loaded with gear for 2-3 nights of tenting. Drop off and do NEBDR type poop. Then carve some twisties and then head home. You know, it all!

    At this point I'm convinced a 300L/Rally is just too small for the job. I don't think I'd be comfortable or happy with it. I am just not excited about a thumper/dual-sport. I want a better version of my old V-Strom 650.

    The top two contenders have been the T7 and KTM 890. At this point I'm very strongly considering throwing some caution to the wind and putting a deposit down on a brand new 890 ADV-R, if I can find one. I want the sexy brakes and sexy suspension. I like the greater range and lower center of gravity. And I sure don't mind the idea of moar powah. An 890 ADV-R is overkill for my rider skill; a T7 or even a used F800GS would probably be more than enough. But screw-it, I want the bling! We may be about to go down in a thermonuclear nightmare. Might as well go out having some fun.

    I thought I had finance committee sign off to go N+1. After plugging it into the budget it seems that sign-off wasn't quite as solid as I thought. Which honestly is understandable. I'm now strongly considering flipping my Harley Road King to sweeten the deal. KBB trade is $11,325. KBB list is like $15k. If I could walk away from that bike for ~$12k the finance committee and I would be perfectly happy.
    You're perfectly describing the use case for a mid size adventure bike. I think you'd be completely happy with the 890R or T7.

    Might I also remind you of the existence of the 890 non R? My two buddies and I regularly make a loop out of the Trans-MA Trail and NEBDR, and we're riding a 1290SAR, 1290SAT (me) and 790 non R. None of us have ever had a problem with those bikes on that type of ride (although I wouldn't want to go up CR3 in the NY leg of the NEBDR on any of the aforementioned bikes...going down is fine though). That said if you have your heart set on the better suspension, I fully understand.

    Might also want to check out the Tuareg 660 and Desert X.

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  6. #481
    Lifer
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I would spend the rest of my life wondering why I didn't hold out for an -R for the suspension. I'd find a way to justify spending 2x as much to retrofit -R suspension onto a non-R. The price delta just isn't significant enough to make the non-R. Fuggit! If we are going to do this, let's do it all the way!

    Ditto for a used 790 vs 890.

    Neither of the italians interest me enough. I don't think they are available enough yet either. Another draw of the KTM 890 is that it isn't a 1st year model.

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  7. #482
    Lifer
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    My 2021 bonus has been set. Finance committee and I have come to an agreement.

    Will be cleaning up the 2014 Harley Road King Police (FLHP) for sale by month's end.

    I put an inquiry for an 890 ADV-R into Freedom in Concord.

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  8. #483

    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I know ya'll have heard this before and are probably going to lol on this, but I'm getting serious about an ADV bike again. I really miss having an ADV'er as I think they are the ultimate New England motorcycle. I want a bike that will go 2-3 hours on the slab to a campsite loaded with gear for 2-3 nights of tenting. Drop off and do NEBDR type poop. Then carve some twisties and then head home. You know, it all!

    At this point I'm convinced a 300L/Rally is just too small for the job. I don't think I'd be comfortable or happy with it. I am just not excited about a thumper/dual-sport. I want a better version of my old V-Strom 650.

    The top two contenders have been the T7 and KTM 890. At this point I'm very strongly considering throwing some caution to the wind and putting a deposit down on a brand new 890 ADV-R, if I can find one. I want the sexy brakes and sexy suspension. I like the greater range and lower center of gravity. And I sure don't mind the idea of moar powah. An 890 ADV-R is overkill for my rider skill; a T7 or even a used F800GS would probably be more than enough. But screw-it, I want the bling! We may be about to go down in a thermonuclear nightmare. Might as well go out having some fun.

    I thought I had finance committee sign off to go N+1. After plugging it into the budget it seems that sign-off wasn't quite as solid as I thought. Which honestly is understandable. I'm now strongly considering flipping my Harley Road King to sweeten the deal. KBB trade is $11,325. KBB list is like $15k. If I could walk away from that bike for ~$12k the finance committee and I would be perfectly happy.
    I hear a ton of good things about the 890 from a riding dynamic perspective. The one thing that put me off the KTM is that the motor is made in China by CF Moto. I understand that their QC is probably excellent etc etc but for almost $15,000 it's still a little disappointing that KTM is cutting costs on that side of things.

    I was sold on the AT1100 for about the same price. Made in Japan, and of course the DCT is unique to Honda. Definitely not as spicy of a motor or as much of a scalpel off road but might be something you want to ride in comparison to the 890.

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  9. #484

    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Yup SRT nailed it…midsize ADV…go 890 #yolo

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  10. #485
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by LXnastynotch93 View Post
    I hear a ton of good things about the 890 from a riding dynamic perspective. The one thing that put me off the KTM is that the motor is made in China by CF Moto. I understand that their QC is probably excellent etc etc but for almost $15,000 it's still a little disappointing that KTM is cutting costs on that side of things.

    I was sold on the AT1100 for about the same price. Made in Japan, and of course the DCT is unique to Honda. Definitely not as spicy of a motor or as much of a scalpel off road but might be something you want to ride in comparison to the 890.
    Unless you have some source I have not seen, the whole China thing is merely a long running rumor that never seems to die. While I can't speak to the engine specifically, the VIN on the 790/890 clearly states the bike was built in Austria, and there's nothing to indicate the motors are sourced from China, except that KTM has an agreement with CFMoto to license the x90 motors for use in some Chinese made adventure bikes.

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  11. #486
    Lifer jimmycapp's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Hadn’t heard of this either. Wonder if they are going through with it.

    https://www.motorbeam.com/ktm-advent...made-in-china/

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  12. #487
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmycapp View Post
    Hadn’t heard of this either. Wonder if they are going through with it.

    https://www.motorbeam.com/ktm-advent...made-in-china/
    That was news years ago, but the news was never born out in fact, other than the partnership with CFMoto (this is the bike that inherited the 790 mill).

    Like I said if you decode all VINs including 2021 890's and the 2022 901's, they're all made in Austria to this day.

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  13. #488
    Lifer
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I had lost track of this too. My googling today suggests that the 890 engines may in fact be made in China by CFMoto right now while the bike itself is assembled (ie "made") in Austria.

    CFMoto already manufactures many of KTM’s engines, including the 799cc LC8c parallel twin, for sale worldwide..
    Honestly, WTF ever. Half my shit is already made in China. I'd love to have a 110% American made thing. But there really isn't such a thing. Half my Harley is made overseas; most of the front end is either Italian or Japanese. Etc, etc.


    I was in absolute lust over the Africa Twin when it came out. I even went to the IMS in NYC mostly to see it. I was ready to buy, but life got in the way and I wound up with my Harley instead.
    Then they had some 1st run issues; something about fork coatings and such. And IMO the 890 specs eclipse it, especially for dirt. I hear the 1100 version is a nice refresh and worthy. But they are-in practice-as much as or more than the KTM. Heavier too.

    My read is that you can't buy a non DCT Africa Twin 1100 this side of California right now. And I have no interest in DCT at all.


    The 890 or the T7 is what is rustling my jimmies right now.

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  14. #489
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    This isn't a perfect translation, but according to the article from Italian mag Inmoto, as of early last year, KTM is still in the process of exporting it's production - including engines - to China. The article is a little vague but seems to indicate that the 890 mill is still made in Austria.

    https://www.inmoto.it/news/approfond...0_entry-level_

    Really not that important in the end, but just thought I'd try to help set the record straight.

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    Last edited by SRTie4k; 03-09-22 at 04:08 PM.
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  15. #490
    I hardly know ‘er Spooler's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Anyone considered the Norden 901? Seems like it splits the off-road difference between the 890 and 890 R pretty well, with an emphasis on travel comfort, better looking (to me), comes with a bunch of stuff standard that’s optional on the 890, (supposedly) better fit and finish. The MSRP seems fairly appealing compared to the 890 R. Availability/dealer markup might be an issue.

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  16. #491
    I hardly know ‘er Spooler's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I really like the idea of the T7, but availability has prices crazy. Used ones with 15k miles on advrider for $13k+. Makes the idea of an affordable midsize ADV kind of laughable.

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  17. #492
    Senior Member ducatirdr's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Here's my short review of the T7 vs 890.

    890 is a 3rd gear wheelie machine. Feels best abusing it. A bit hard edged to live with.
    T7 is comfortable until it isn't and this is where the 890 starts to shine.
    T7 doesn't need traction control because its large flywheel motor is as predictable as a flat tracker. The 890 is bomb going off that needs some containment if you worry about getting sideways.
    The 890 is easier to pick up. The T7 lays flat on the ground where the 890 rolls onto its feet with that gas tank design.
    The new T7 World Raid released in EU is going to come to the USA according to Daytona demo fleet guy. This is much more competitive with the 890. The lower CG tanks and all.
    The T7 doesn't have cruise control. The 890 has it. I like Cruise and use it all the time.
    The T7 looks GREAT. The KTM has grown on me.
    I personally think the new 2022 blue T7 is a winner in looks and price. Add a rear shock and a tweak the front sus and you have a weapon.

    I do love 3rd gear wheelies that the 890 can deliver....

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  18. #493
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    IMO Yamaha really blew it by not adding CC to the T7WW. If you already have TBW, why not add CC? It's like 10 lines of code extra and an extra switch on the handlebar. Dumb on a bike that is meant for adventure travel.

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  19. #494

    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post

    My read is that you can't buy a non DCT Africa Twin 1100 this side of California right now. And I have no interest in DCT at all.
    Totally understandable. I went to the dealer with 100% intention to buy the manual version. I hopped on the DCT because thats what they had in stock and I was hooked. 10 minutes into the ride I didn't miss shifting at all. Set the transmission to sport 2 and its telepathic. The way the DCT integrates with the electronics is seamless. It holds shifts in the corners based on lean angles, brake pressure, traction, etc. It'll change shift points on downshift based on brake pressure, engine braking mode, etc. In off road mode (G-Mode) the transmission locks the clutches up faster to put power to the ground better. Its a seriously advanced part of the bike.

    If you want you can put a foot shifter on the bike for $400 or so. Put the bike in manual mode and hammer the gears with the foot shifter. Its like a Rekluse at that point. In manual mode it'll let you hammer the rev limiter all day long - you have full control of the shift points.

    A few drawbacks: you can't do clutch up wheelies, you've gotta use a lot of rear brake at slow speeds offroad, and the regular "D" transmission mode sucks. You've gotta be in Sport 1 at the very least.

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  20. #495
    Lifer
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I think my views on the rekluse are somewhat infamous. I have no interest in those either!

    Part of why I ride a motorbike is to shift those gears. As is I'm a bit hesitant about a bike with an electronic quick-shifter. But everyone raves about them.. And it is a package with the rest of the goodies. So what the hell. But I love working that clutch. I consider proper clutch control part of the challenge.
    That said, I'm also not racing nor looking for 110% of the performance.

    In this way the purity of the T7 is very appealing; nothing but an ABS on/off switch. Soured by the lack of availability (may be an issue with KTM as well), rampant price gouging, lackluster range, 2-pot sliding pin brakes, and relatively ho-hum suspension.

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  21. #496
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I think my views on the rekluse are somewhat infamous. I have no interest in those either!

    Part of why I ride a motorbike is to shift those gears. As is I'm a bit hesitant about a bike with an electronic quick-shifter. But everyone raves about them.. And it is a package with the rest of the goodies. So what the hell. But I love working that clutch. I consider proper clutch control part of the challenge.
    That said, I'm also not racing nor looking for 110% of the performance.

    In this way the purity of the T7 is very appealing; nothing but an ABS on/off switch. Soured by the lack of availability (may be an issue with KTM as well), rampant price gouging, lackluster range, 2-pot sliding pin brakes, and relatively ho-hum suspension.
    I don't really consider a quick shifter on the same level of mechanical "intrusion" as I do a Rekluse or auto tranny. The quick shifter is there only if you want to bang through the gears on accel/decel, but you still have a clutch and a shifter and can do everything manually. Furthermore you can shut the quick shifter off from the dash so preloading the shifter won't cut or blip the engine.

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  22. #497
    Lifer Imbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    I helped push the stuck t7 of a pretty good rider up some washed out areas of dual track last year, after riding up it NO PROBLEM on the klx400, and got my lower legs and boots absolutely soaked when I ran in to help pull a different t7 off of guy who had tipped over in a big slippery mud puddle, with his leg trapped underneath. Very lucky for that rider that the puddle wasn’t deeper or he would’ve needed a snorkel.

    To each his own, but Colin, I’m just here to say that PERSONALLY, that day was when I decided that there’s no way I ever wanna be in New England woods on a bike that heavy, even when dual track is on the menu. T7 weight=452. klx400 weight 262. Full disclosure and to be fair, I had DOT knobs on my bike and those guys had more dual purpose tires, but when the goal is ripping street with luggage, and then riding dirt when you get there, dual purpose tires will be likely be on either bike. It’s even harder for less than aggressive tires to work, uphill or in the mud, when the bike is almost twice the weight.

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  23. #498

    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post

    In this way the purity of the T7 is very appealing; nothing but an ABS on/off switch. Soured by the lack of availability (may be an issue with KTM as well), rampant price gouging, lackluster range, 2-pot sliding pin brakes, and relatively ho-hum suspension.
    100% agree. Crossed the T7 off my list because I've heard it is VERY soft on power, and you can't find them anywhere. Didn't ride the 890R even though Razees had one on the showroom floor. I've had some KTM horror stories in the past so I stick to Japanese bikes. I probably should've ridden the 890R just for comparison sake.

    Good luck on your search 🤙

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  24. #499
    Lifer
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by Spooler View Post
    Anyone considered the Norden 901? Seems like it splits the off-road difference between the 890 and 890 R pretty well, with an emphasis on travel comfort, better looking (to me), comes with a bunch of stuff standard that’s optional on the 890, (supposedly) better fit and finish. The MSRP seems fairly appealing compared to the 890 R. Availability/dealer markup might be an issue.
    My half-informed read on the Norden is that it is only slightly incrementally different than the base/-S 890 Adventure. I stopped reading once I learned it has the 43mm Apex forks. I want the big-boy forks for this kind of $!

    Are the electronics offerings different? I think I read they maybe were.

    Shame as I kind of dig the styling.

    That said, I love orange and have nothing against having KTM in my garage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spooler View Post
    I really like the idea of the T7, but availability has prices crazy. Used ones with 15k miles on advrider for $13k+. Makes the idea of an affordable midsize ADV kind of laughable.
    Yup. Part of what is driving me up market to the KTM.. kind of just effing want it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    IMO Yamaha really blew it by not adding CC to the T7WW. If you already have TBW, why not add CC? It's like 10 lines of code extra and an extra switch on the handlebar. Dumb on a bike that is meant for adventure travel.
    Is the world-rally really throttle by wire? I had not read that anywhere.

    I was initially turned off by the no cruise but have since decided I would be comfortable adding it as a kit and/or just using a throttle lock.

    I agree it is nice. Have it on my RK and I use it constantly as well.

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  25. #500
    Awesomeness, Inc. MattR302's Avatar
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    Re: Thinking about dual sport/ ADV bike

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    My 2021 bonus has been set. Finance committee and I have come to an agreement.

    Will be cleaning up the 2014 Harley Road King Police (FLHP) for sale by month's end.

    I put an inquiry for an 890 ADV-R into Freedom in Concord.
    FYI, Noel G (GixerJockey) is the sales GM at Colonial Power & Sport (KTM) in Milford CT, might be worth pinging that doofus. They also have a pre-owned 2004 Harley on their website so knows maybe they wants yours.

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