Mr. T's Terrible Tale

[SteveM]

This takes me back to my MSF BRC course in '98 at Otis AFB. As a COMPLETE NOOB at 38 years old, I was quite nervous, until I saw 3 of the 8 riders drop the CB250's while paddling them in a straight line with the engine off.

Once that happened, I realized that passing the course was not going to be a big obstacle, and I learned a lot in the course.

As Degsy stated, almost all of my group had Harley's waiting for them at home and I was clearly the oddball with a leftover 2006 CB750 Nighthawk waiting for me.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.337 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Can I get a ride in your time machine?

[SteveM]

Seeing those bikes fall over is something you don't remember every day but also something you never forget.

Sadly, the Nighthawk is gone. I traded it on my first VFR after 5,000 miles.

Of all the bikes I've owned, that's the one I wish I'd hung onto.

["Dangerous" Dan K]

I'm pretty sure the MSF course I took did.

I know for a fact the one I took did. I took a huge amount of shit from the instructor because I already had my first bike, an 87 ZX750. If I recall correctly it had around 80hp from the factory (15 years and 30K miles earlier) and weighed about a metric fuckton. IMO it made a good first bike. Easy to ride, friendly & predictable power, etc. It was also cheap and not the end of the world to drop. The instructors definitely stressed what a bad idea a sport bike was for a first bike though, especially a 750. Of course, a more modern 600 would have been a better choice in their eyes, regardless of the fact that power/weight it would have been twice the machine, and a lot harder to ride.

[BostonSVkid]

I rode my sv650 to my MSF and I was told it was a great starter bike which it was for me personally anyways

[Slyder]

I've never taken the MSF course. Though I started riding when I was, um, 9? 10? 11? Something around there. Way too small for an RM-80, had to get a KX-60. Knowing how to ride a dirty bike has saved my ass a few times on the street.

[Wislon]

Two-tiered licensing good? No — essential!
MSF is a very low bar compared to German and UK tests. German & British riders are a lot better than the average two-wheeled bundle of hubris, ego & sheer incompetence I see riding round here.
MSF has to be better than the NY DMV test I passed on coming to the US, but pathetic when you think of how ill-equipped a new rider is who only passed via MSF.
Remember, all those noobs who dump an expensive performance bike cost us all in insurance premiums. Also think of the damage to our public image. By the way, it's not true that most motorcycle accidents are cause by the car driver — 70% of all motorcycle accidents are single vehicle — i.e. no other vehicle involved.
What's good about two-tiered licensing is that it allows new riders on the street who are at least aware that they don't know it all. It also makes it easy to regulate what they ride. That 600 is 'way more than a beginner can handle.
Remember when 100 HP was a big deal? Like, talk of limiting street-legal bikes? I don't want that again. I'm sorry to say that only regulation will stop the selling of performance bikes to beginners.
As a certified "kinda slow, reasonably careful" definitely old (much to my surprise) guy who almost never exceeds 120MPH on the public road I want to see more better riders out there. The salesmen can just suck it up and sell 250's or 400's (or Moto Guzzis of any size, heh heh) — they'll have more customers in the long run.
Sorry for the lack of humour.
Wislon

[Doc]

I've never taken the MSF course. Though I started riding when I was, um, 9? 10? 11? Something around there. Way too small for an RM-80, had to get a KX-60. Knowing how to ride a dirty bike has saved my ass a few times on the street.

Maybe you should try the ERC?

[Slyder]

Maybe you should try the ERC?

In all honesty I'm right sick of living in this area, where I end up might be back up there, or southern NH. If I ended up in S NH I'd really be contemplating Penguin, and a 600 to race in the meat grinder class. Once the $ situation changes I'll figure out which direction I'm gonna move and go from there. Until it changes, unfortunately I won't be taking any courses unless they are next to free.

[scottieducati]

Wislon.... you ever met Degsy?

Consider him the "choir."

[scubasteve]

this is the land of the free... free to make a smart decision, or a poor decision...

I've not read anything about tiered licensing actually saving lives... Serious injuries can happen just as easily on a RS50 that goes 50mph...

As for the sales person, a scumbag sales person is one that takes a guy looking at a 600, and tries to get them to walk out with a 1k or a busa or whatever because he needs to get it off his floor. This sales guy is hardly a scumbag - the guy wanted it, he told the guy its a fast bike, the guy said he was gonna buy it here or there.. You're trying to earn a living... I'd sell the bike to the guy too and no have a single problem sleeping at night.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.337 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Two-tiered licensing good? No — essential!
MSF is a very low bar compared to German and UK tests. German & British riders are a lot better than the average two-wheeled bundle of hubris, ego & sheer incompetence I see riding round here.
MSF has to be better than the NY DMV test I passed on coming to the US, but pathetic when you think of how ill-equipped a new rider is who only passed via MSF.
Remember, all those noobs who dump an expensive performance bike cost us all in insurance premiums. Also think of the damage to our public image. By the way, it's not true that most motorcycle accidents are cause by the car driver — 70% of all motorcycle accidents are single vehicle — i.e. no other vehicle involved.
What's good about two-tiered licensing is that it allows new riders on the street who are at least aware that they don't know it all. It also makes it easy to regulate what they ride. That 600 is 'way more than a beginner can handle.
Remember when 100 HP was a big deal? Like, talk of limiting street-legal bikes? I don't want that again. I'm sorry to say that only regulation will stop the selling of performance bikes to beginners.
As a certified "kinda slow, reasonably careful" definitely old (much to my surprise) guy who almost never exceeds 120MPH on the public road I want to see more better riders out there. The salesmen can just suck it up and sell 250's or 400's (or Moto Guzzis of any size, heh heh) — they'll have more customers in the long run.
Sorry for the lack of humour.
Wislon

MSf qualifies you to ride a borrowed 250 around a parking lot, nothing more. However, it's an absolute essential in my book. I have no doubt that a simple 15 hour BRC course gives the new rider a massive increase in their likelihood of not hurting themselves during that first season.

[butcher bergs]

I like this Wilson guy.

The reduciton of insurance rates alone are worth the price of admission for tiered licensing, IMO.

[zombie]

two tiered licensing is a lousy idea and would decimate bike sales over here.
The level of bullshit to get a license is staggering in Germany , poxy pencil pushers trying to save us from ourselves.
More restrictions imposed , whats next limiting people to 33bhp
Once you go down that road there is no turning back...
So be very careful what you wish for

[Paul_E_D]

We do... in the MSF I teach.

Really? Are you adding your own material to the MSF course? Because after 9 years teaching it I've never found the part that explains what makes a good bike to learn on. This really pisses me off. I suspect Degsy's explanation is true.

What gets me even more is that half the instructors started on harleys and consider the 883 a starter bike.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.337 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

two tiered licensing is a lousy idea and would decimate bike sales over here.
The level of bullshit to get a license is staggering in Germany , poxy pencil pushers trying to save us from ourselves.
More restrictions imposed , whats next limiting people to 33bhp
Once you go down that road there is no turning back...
So be very careful what you wish for

Yup. You want a ruined bike industry, go to tiered licensing. It will never happen. Once again, two letters, HD.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.337 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Should be MSF course just for permit, then lengthy on-road test to get your license.

[zombie]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.337 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Should be MSF course just for permit, then lengthy on-road test to get your license.

We got a winner....
Now that is the voice of reason..........
Which reminds me I gotta do the experience rider course again as it's been a bunch of yrs and I always find it good to brush up on some forgotten stuff

[butcher bergs]

Should be MSF course just for permit, then lengthy on-road test to get your license.

Is this not a form of tiered licensing?

Maybe we should call it "graduated licensing"?

[Jason P.]

Bruised wallet. Bruised bike. Bruised ego.

My friend who bought an older CB750 cafe racer project bike - mind you he hasnt even rode this for 100 miles - wanted to upgrade to a 08 CBR1000RR because it was CHEAP. i had to convince him he will die because the two bikes are NO WHERE NEAR THE SAME LEVEL. thankfully he listened - and thank god considering he has kids.

[SteveM]

Update!!!

The good news... insurance declared it a total loss. There will be a salvage CBR1000RR with 4 miles on it floating around somewhere...

The bad news... it is reliably reported that Mr. T's formerly supportive wife has been showing pictures of his crashed helmet to anyone who will look so as to emphasize his idiocy.

To reference another thread, clearly the CBR1000RR was not the right "first bike" for Mr. T, but it will probably be his last bike.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.508 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Should be MSF course just for permit, then lengthy on-road test to get your license.

Is this not a form of tiered licensing?

Maybe we should call it "graduated licensing"?

Not even remotely similar. Graduated licencing means you are restricted by CC or HP for a set number of years then can move to bigger and bigger bikes as you take further tests.

[j4eric]

i took the MSF course in 04 and bought a vstar 650, it took me 5yrs to put 4k miles on it...shows you how much i did not enjoy it....

so basically still a noob, last year, i traded the vstar for an F4i...one of the best decisions i ever made.......put on 6k miles just last summer......then the 08 cbr1000rr fire sale came...so I snagged one right away (after asking the forum of course)...i'm still learning and plan to go to penguin racing school this spring.....i havent mastered the 600 much more the 1000rr but i am always thinking of safety and I do know my limits.

i guess my message is....its very seldom (not unheard of) that a noob will learn on a liter bike the safe way....the odds are profoundly against you with a liter bike.....

to be clear, i still have both CBR's, the F4i and 1000rr, i use the RR for daily commute and show off, and i use the f4i for rides and will do for the track.