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Vermont turkey run debacle

  1. #1
    Lifer richw's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle


    There is a follow up in the Rutland Herald that the Vermont State Attorney General did have problems with the stopping of the Turkey Run

    (search Bill Thebert on Rutland Herald Site) he's the www.netra.org guy

    Just to make you guys crazy the one of two Lesbian Sherrifs in the USA touted by NOW was the instrument of stopping law abiding motorcyclists from doing their thing. A person whom I am sure would not permit others from telling her she can't do her thing.

    Fear the Government that fears your dirt bike

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  2. #2
    Littering and........
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    That whole situation was ridiculous. Those cops were on a mad power trip, and they ought to at least be sanctioned in some way.

    I hope NETRA sues them.

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  3. #3
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    NETRA won't sue them, and if they did they wouldn't win.

    If you look for all the articles on it on that newspaper, not just the letters from the NETRA representative, you get a slightly different view..

    Apparently they have rode by the houses of the selectman, etc.. the last few years and were viewed as a problem. Whether or not it is illegal in that town, chances are if the town got slapped down for harassing them, they will work on passing laws to stop the ride from going through their town. Either the bikes were loud, or they were speeding, or acting illegally in some other way. True it could just be an ass who hates riders, but if the town ends up passing new ordinances that would seem unlikely because other people will have to support them.

    We are a tiny minority, sometimes we need to work with people rather than against them. Hopefully NETRA is working on figuring out how to have the ride go through that town without annoying people, rather than just doing the "In your face" shit and annoying people even more.

    Reminds me of our 30+ strong ride this fall with lots of 100+ speeds on VT 100 with residents out in the road trying to slow people down. You better believe some of those people are going to try and influence their local governments to stop that kind of behavior in the future. The towns belong to the residents, not tourists.

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  4. #4
    Lifer richw's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    I read 2 or 3 of the articles in the local papers as well as the netra report. The Attorney General did say the action was over zealous but would not be taking action against the town. I am vague about details but the town council heard of the event and had passed some draconian law against operating even unregistered vehicles on 4th class roads. The description sounded like every path qualifies as a 4th class road. When confronted with the facts that loggers and farmers etc would be effected there was some $100 / yr permitting fee. However there is a waiting time and public response time of 60 days before this could come into effect and the "sherrif" knew this but enforced it anyway.

    I also believe that Sherrif Prue is not Sherrif any longer

    The New England Dirtriders with the ACLU is supposedly sueing over another incident. There is also a annual BMW rally that is/was cancelled for Windham County for fear of selective prosecution.

    I think that personnel agendas came into play. The perfect harmony of local arrogant overlords, tree huggers, and power mad LEO's stopped normal citizens from a legal activity.

    The sheep get the government they deserve.

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  5. #5
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    They would be sheep if they let the riders go through their town however they pleased...

    These people are definitely not sheep. The've seen what they want and they've decided to act on it...

    This is an example of small local government standing up for their rights, not big government trying to take things away from people...

    I really don't see how they (NETRA and ACLU) have any chance of winning... it is not a right to be able to ride a motorcycle, if these localities want to restrict motorcycles, it is up to them to hear it out with Vermont. If Vermont decides it is OK for them to restrict bikes, then it is OK for them to do so.

    IIRC the BMW one was different in that it was a smaller group and was a purely "on road" ride.

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  6. #6
    Dic on
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Originally posted by benVFR

    I really don't see how they (NETRA and ACLU) have any chance of winning... it is not a right to be able to ride a motorcycle, if these localities want to restrict motorcycles, it is up to them to hear it out with Vermont. If Vermont decides it is OK for them to restrict bikes, then it is OK for them to do so.

    Tell that to Brockton, MA. They got their asses kicked in court by the AMA when they tried to ban motorcycles from city park areas.

    derek

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  7. #7
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Ben, I don't know ifyou are aware,but the voters of Jamacia overwhelmingly overturned the ordinance that the selectboard illegally put into effect

    Pathfinders discussion on law suit

    AG summary

    editorials in the Refoormer

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    RandyO
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  8. #8
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    If they choose to ban motorcycles from public roadways, they can expect to loose all government funding for roads. We DO have a right to go wherever a car goes.

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  9. #9
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    I'm kind of just being Devil's advocate... if they wanted to get rid of cars or bikes I am assuming if the town voted to do so, they would be allowed to do so...

    Does this town get any federal funding anyway? Rt. 100 goes through town but that is a state road right?

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  10. #10
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Ah now I want to read that Pathfinder thread...

    I wonder what their "damages" were... that they had to turn around and go home?

    Sounds like a frivolous lawsuit worse than the McDonald's coffee one if they sue for "damages" on top of just getting back the ability to ride through that area.

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  11. #11
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Read the details of that McDonalds coffee suite. It wasn't frivolous.

    The McDonalds case about the people getting fat from eating their food and suing, that is. The coffee case had merit due to the unusually high temp of their coffee.

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  12. #12
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Originally posted by TheIglu
    If they choose to ban motorcycles from public roadways, they can expect to loose all government funding for roads. We DO have a right to go wherever a car goes.
    Clay... they were not just banning motorcycles form these road, they were banning ALL motorized vehicles ......these roads in question receive no federal funding .... Class IV roads in VT are similar to class VI roads in NH ..... closed subject to gates and bars, non maintained..... not sure if they have a similar road status in MA.

    one of the reasons the residents on the road want to ban the public is because currently there is no public funding for maiontenance. CANT lose what you don't have

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    RandyO
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  13. #13
    Lifer bentbryan's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Originally posted by TheIglu
    The coffee case had merit due to the unusually high temp of their coffee.

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  14. #14
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Randy after reading those threads and the attorney general's stuff it really doesn't sound like the town is wrong.

    The Sheriff & deputies may have fucked up and not followed requirements carefully, but it really sounds like the town wants the event to disappear and they are going to do whatever they can to make sure that happens.

    So NETRA sues, the town then proceeds to tighten the regulations even more, eventually they are going to get rid of that ride.

    Be interesting to see what happens to the selectman & the sheriff, if they are elected again, I think it is pretty clear, the people in that area just don't want a big event going through their area.

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  15. #15
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle


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  16. #16
    Lifer richw's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Only if they made it some sort of preserve should they be able to ban traffic

    Don't give the b*stards any credit because I am sure its just anti motorcycles It would just give the local storm troupers a legitamacy to stop anyone all the better.

    They don't care about your stinkning alleged freedom to come and go as you please (don't say privalege that's bullshot too)

    Who would believe if the town council rides a tank up and down the trails naked the local sherif would stop him/her.


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  17. #17
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Nah...

    Read the ATG's letter. If NETRA doesn't sue and win, then next year the event will be legally banned.

    The only thing the town did "illegally" in enacting the ordinance was not having a 60-day waiting period after enacting it, and getting approval from the state secretary of transportation. If they can get that approval by next year they will have legally stopped the race.

    The only things the Sheriff & deputies did wrong is a) Assume the event was a race and require the permits b) Not respect the 60 day waiting period on the ordinance. The other issues they were enforcing were that the bikes were DOT legal, that they were obeying the off road laws, etc..

    The roads in question are dirt roads which private property owners have to maintain. That is why they want permits, to help pay for the maintenance, and apparently this run causes a lot of damage on the dirt roads.

    The ATGs letter also states that the whole thing was set in motion by a whole bunch of illegal activity associated with the event in the past 4 years and many complaints.

    It sure does not sound like it is "one bad selectman" who just hates motorcycles.

    They would do good to run the event in a totally different county every year so they don't cause accumulated road & trail damage. 100 mountain bikes on a route like that can cause significant damage, I am sure 100 motorized bikes can cause a lot of damage too. If this event came through the county once every 10 years instead of once a year things would probably never have gotten out of hand.

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  18. #18
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Originally posted by benVFR
    Randy after reading those threads and the attorney general's stuff it really doesn't sound like the town is wrong.

    The Sheriff & deputies may have fucked up and not followed requirements carefully, but it really sounds like the town wants the event to disappear and they are going to do whatever they can to make sure that happens.

    So NETRA sues, the town then proceeds to tighten the regulations even more, eventually they are going to get rid of that ride.

    Be interesting to see what happens to the selectman & the sheriff, if they are elected again, I think it is pretty clear, the people in that area just don't want a big event going through their area.
    No Ben, the "select board" wants the event to dissapear.... the towns poeple voted overwhelmingly to NOT close the roads

    what will happen if the select board keeps up with their shenanagins is they will be voted out of office

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  19. #19
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Originally posted by RandyO
    Clay... they were not just banning motorcycles form these road, they were banning ALL motorized vehicles ......these roads in question receive no federal funding .... Class IV roads in VT are similar to class VI roads in NH ..... closed subject to gates and bars, non maintained..... not sure if they have a similar road status in MA.

    one of the reasons the residents on the road want to ban the public is because currently there is no public funding for maiontenance. CANT lose what you don't have
    Ahhh, i thought they were trying to say "No motorcycles on our roads in our town". If they choose to ban everyone, then so be it.

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  20. #20
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Originally posted by RandyO
    No Ben, the "select board" wants the event to dissapear.... the towns poeple voted overwhelmingly to NOT close the roads

    what will happen if the select board keeps up with their shenanagins is they will be voted out of office
    Please point me to where this happened...

    The links you post do not say the town voted overwhelmingly to keep the roads open.

    It says the town legally passed the ordinances but did not observe the 60-day waiting period, and did not get approval from the state secretary of transportation...

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  21. #21
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    I'm going to have to ask my Cousin about this, he his a lawyer in VT and is pretty active in terms of fighting for trail rights, projects, etc..

    I have no idea what his views are on motorcycles but he may know a lot about this.

    Here is another link about what the town is doing:



    Findings on biker event get challenge

    Ok, this article DOES say the town later voted down the ordinance but it sure sounds like they are trying to figure out the correct way to control these roads.

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  22. #22
    Littering and........
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Originally posted by benVFR
    NETRA won't sue them, and if they did they wouldn't win.

    Why thank you, Judge Ben

    Actually, NETRA had a thread on their web site asking for input as to whether or not they should sue. They say they did indeed incur financial loss because of police wrongdoing, which equals a good money earner case in my opinion.

    The issue they have is that if they sue, they are afraid they wont be welcomed back. IMO, they should ask the town for another date, and for the police to help officiate the event (i.e., be on call, and watching for injuries, etc.). If the town and police ar unwilling to do that, then fuck it, sue 'em. The folks that drove out there incurred financial losses from their trip, and the club incurred losses from the loss of entry fees, etc.

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  23. #23
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Blah...

    How can they say they suffered financial loss? They didn't get to enjoy the trails... the money they spent to drive out there was already spent...

    Maybe they will sue, it sounds like some of them on their board don't want to sue.

    I wish I could find out if NETRA or the Pathfinders club ever did volunteer trail or road maintenance in the area. That is the fastest way to get your offroad group welcomed back with open arms...

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  24. #24
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    Another letter showing the other side of the story:

    Selectman's letter to the paper

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  25. #25
    Lifer
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    Vermont turkey run debacle

    And another from a local:

    Link to newspaper

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