Summer plans for Vermont Bike Night

[Doc]

It's a good idea because if we want to grow Bike Night, it's best to be consistent about location. The people we're trying to draw are the ones who are not on this forum and maybe don't check Craigslist either. If we move Bike Night around, they're going to have trouble finding it.

This is the same reason I think it's a mistake to do Bike Night at Chicken Charlie's (or wherever) only one night a month.

Either we move it or we leave it at Donny's. It does not make sense to me to go back and forth.

Why didn't you say this at Bike Night? I remember you in agreement with the consensus of the table that we would try bike night once a month at a different location once the numbers got good this summer?

Doing rides to A&W or wherever on different nights would allow those who can make it to participate without disrupting the regular Bike Night.

Good luck with that. If they can't make it to bike night on any other night but tuesday )since everyone changes their schedule to accomodate Bike Night on Tuesdays) How are they possibly going to go on a ride on another week night? It would be great and I wish you luck. I will even try to attend if i can but i think it easier to plan group rides on the weekend or short/small rides from bike night.

I already do that, in case you forgot. And they're real rides, not a short hop to get a burger and hang out.

Yep, you are very good at that Mark. As long as it is not a big group or at a FAST pace.
Short rides from bike night out to the community does more to get the word out about bike night than just sitting waiting for people to ride through Winooski.

Where are you going to advertise it where everyone will see it? Ain't gonna happen. Advertising alternating locations is like advertising Bike Night for the first time, every week. It's ineffective advertising. (I haven't worked at JDK for over 12 years without learning a few things about marketing and advertising.)

We gain people by being consistent -- "Tuesday nights at (Donny's/Chicken Charlie's/wherever)" needs to get passed around by word of mouth, flyers, etc. Then people will swing by and check it out. If they swing by wherever they think it is and we're not there, they probably won't bother to try again..

I disagree. If we do the internet mailing list/craigslist/ NESR/ Word of mouth/ Cell phone call roster... we can inform PLENTY of people prior to any changes. I don't think going to the same Larger location one night a month is going to confuse people at all. It just might excite them.

What makes you think that? How will people know that the big group of bikes going by has anything to do with Bike Night? Unless you have some Vermont Bike Night vinyl stickers made up to put on your Ducati's fairings, or a big Bike Night flag to fly from a pole attached to your subframe.

Or maybe VESTS!!!

The point was that everyone was taking off at 7, leaving like three of us there, so to the new people showing up after 7 (and there were a decent number of them), it looked like no one comes to Bike Night. Most of those people didn't come back, and I don't blame them.

It's Bike Night, not Creemee Run Night. If summer hours are 6-9, it's ridiculous for the organizers of the night to leave and take everyone with them a third of the way through. If you want to do a creemee run, keep Bike Night's winter hours of 5:30-8:30 and leave for the creemee run at 8.

Sitting and talking to people at cremee stands/ A&W/ ETC helps get the word out. I am not saying the whole Bike Night leave to go on a short ride from bike night but i don't see a problem with a small group going on a creemee run. I would MUCH rather see rides planned EVERY sunday morning but As far as Bike Night "hours" I don't think there has ever been anything official. People come before 6 and leave after 9. So that point is mute. Hell, Let me decree that bike night starts at 6 and anyone that gets there before or after isn't an official part of bike night.
I think it ridiculous to sit on my ass for 3 hours when it is a beautiful evening and I want a Creemee! I still stress that it is done to get the word out and add another fun thing to do at Bike night (other than tire kicking, eating pizza and bench racing)

This is all basic common sense. Maybe some of it isn't as much fun as you personally want to have, but it's going to take some effort -- and a little sacrifice -- to make Bike Night grow.
--mark

That is exactly what I am doing. Our views are different. That is fine. Maybe it isn't as fun as YOU personally would like to have but it is going to take some effort and sacrifice on your part to make bike night grow.

I find it interesting that you are so vocal here Mark. I think it is great. Next bike night I will keep my mouth shut so you can talk a little more while we are at the table and face to face.

[Doc]

Ya know what...

Do what you guys want. It is YOUR bike night. Good Luck.

I'm out.

[markbvt]

Why didn't you say this at Bike Night? I remember you in agreement with the consensus of the table that we would try bike night once a month at a different location once the numbers got good this summer?

Because I mulled it over afterwards and came to the conclusion that moving Bike Night around is a counterproductive idea.

Yep, you are very good at that Mark. As long as it is not a big group or at a FAST pace.

Exactly, because I don't like riding with large groups, and I don't want any incidents on my rides. It's called being responsible. So far there haven't been any incidents -- more than I can say for some of the other rides that have taken place. And it's not like my rides are slow, they're just not so fast that people risk getting arrested.

Short rides from bike night out to the community does more to get the word out about bike night than just sitting waiting for people to ride through Winooski.

How do these short rides get the word out? How? Explain it. ADVERTISING gets the word out. Grassroots word of mouth gets the word out. Large group rides just make people nervous, unless it's plainly clear what they're all about.

I disagree. If we do the internet mailing list we can inform PLENTY of people prior to any chnages. I don't think going to the same Larger location one night a month is going to confuse people.

The mailing list won't reach the people who haven't shown up yet... or the ones who will have shown up but don't want to give out their email address. Don't underestimate how many people this might be.

Sitting and talking to people at cremee stands/ A&W/ ETC helps get the word out.

How does that help get the word out? How many motorcyclists do you talk to at those places who are going to decide to come to Bike Night? Versus how many people actually show up to Bike Night but don't come back because there's no one there, because everyone's left to go on a creemee run? Because there were a number of those last summer that I witnessed myself.

I am not saying the whole Bike Night leave to go on a short ride from bike night but i don't see a problem with a small group going on a creemee run.

I wouldn't either if it were a small group, but the problem is that just about everyone tags along.

As far as Bike Night "hours" I don't think there has ever been anything official.

??? You're kidding, right? From the beginning it's been 6-9 during the summer and 5:30-8:30 during the off-season. It even says 6-9 right in the damn Vermont Bike Night thread title!

I think it ridiculous to sit on my ass for 3 hours when it is a beautiful evening and I want a Creemee! I still stress that it is done to get the word out and add another fun thing to do at Bike night (other than tire kicking, eating pizza and bench racing)

But the whole point is you're no longer AT Bike Night. You've left and taken most of the crowd with you.

How the hell are new attendees supposed to find you if they can't make it to Bike Night till after 7 and you've left?

It's this simple, Doc: either you want to attend and grow Bike Night, which is 6-9 during the summer at Donny's or at whatever venue we change it to, or you want to go do other things. It's your prerogative to do either -- but claiming that leaving Bike Night to go do something else actually helps Bike Night makes no sense whatsoever.

I find it interesting that you are so vocal here Mark. I think it is great. Next bike night I will keep my mouth shut so you can talk a little more while we are at the table and face to face.

Fine. You're the one who asked me to start this thread in the first place, and now you're complaining that I'm using it for its intended purpose. Whatever. I've continued to think about things after Tuesday's conversation and wasn't content to assume that everything was settled. Because it's not.

--mark

[markbvt]

Ya know what...

Do what you guys want. It is YOUR bike night. Good Luck.

I'm out.

Oh for fuck's sake. Are you seriously going to just give up because not everyone is in perfect agreement with you?

It's a community event. You can't run it as a dictatorship. Furthermore you ASKED for community input. Just because we have different viewpoints doesn't mean that we're not friends and can't come up with a plan that represents what's best for Bike Night.

--mark

[gixerhp]

that paint looks familiar lol.. I'm camaroguy72 on H.org ... that looksl ike the paint job from the guy in LI

How the hell are you doing!

Are you keeping both wheels on the ground, as well as you ass on the bike!

[Doc]

Oh for fuck's sake. Are you seriously going to just give up because not everyone is in perfect agreement with you?

It's a community event. You can't run it as a dictatorship. Furthermore you ASKED for community input. Just because we have different viewpoints doesn't mean that we're not friends and can't come up with a plan that represents what's best for Bike Night.

--mark

I am not giving up Bike night, but it appears my ideas are no good. I am tired of people saying one thing to my face and then posting an entirely different idea. I ma tired of pouring a ton of energy into this to be hit with "but i don't wanna change it"
My ideas do not change, I have a clear vision of where I want bike night to go. I have had the vision since before I started Bike night with Bill's help (and undying love and devotion).
I am just going to become a member of the community and let the powers that be do the planning and the organizing. It will be easier that way.

[markbvt]

I am not giving up Bike night, but it appears my ideas are no good. I am tired of people saying one thing to my face and then posting an entirely different idea. I ma tired of pouring a ton of energy into this to be hit with "but i don't wanna change it"
My ideas do not change, I have a clear vision of where I want bike night to go.

Nobody's saying "I don't wanna change it." Nobody. In this thread various people, including me, are presenting ideas and opinions. This does not mean all of those ideas and opinions will make it into whatever Bike Night evolves into.

If your vision of Bike Night is so clear, then why don't you present us with it? Because so far you haven't said much more than "we need to move to a bigger venue." Here's your chance to shut us all up by posting a clear outline of what you've got in mind for Bike Night and how you think we can achieve it. Personally, I'm not opposed to change if there's a good reason for it, but if the logic isn't there, I don't see the point.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, Doc -- you're my friend and I thoroughly respect all the effort you've put into this. And please understand that forum posts can seem harsher than they're intended -- my aim here is to have a rational conversation, not an argument, but you seem to keep taking offense that isn't intended. At the same time, your logic behind a lot of this stuff escapes me. Maybe if we knew the Grand Plan, it would make more sense... or maybe it wouldn't. But at the very least the community could discuss and figure out ways to make it work.

--mark

[The Magician]

How the hell are you doing!

Are you keeping both wheels on the ground, as well as you ass on the bike!

Haha... yeah life is good! Had another mishap last year which wasnt my fault... other than that so far so good!

Hopefully we'll get some riding in this year..!

[NobodySpecific]

Seriously Doc, while I support some of your ideas, you are making it really difficult to have a meaningful discussion. It's a complex issue, and it's helpful to have BOTH sides out there in plain sight. If you want something to get done, then discuss it and gain support here, but don't get upset if people don't agree with you. I agree with Mark about the Creemee runs not doing anything to build up the visibility of bike night, but at the same time, I really enjoyed getting out and riding with some of you, even if it was just a 15 minute ride. I think actually doing things will keep people interested, but it's a catch-22 because you do alienate the late-comers. There is no right answer in all of this.

I like the idea of mixing things up, because most people have a short attention span and the novelty of doing the same thing every week will wear off. Will advertising it be a challenge? Absolutely, but I still think it can be done. If we do it and we fail miserably then maybe we don't try it again until we come up with another plan. That's why I want to do a slow trial run of Chicken Charlies. If we do it the first Tuesday in June and 3 people show up to Chicken Charlies, and like 15 people show up to Donny's and then leave because we aren't there, then we come up with another plan. If we do it the first Tuesday in July and it fails again, then we concede defeat and that's that. I don't see the harm in trying something new, it won't have that much of a negative affect if for one week people aren't at Donny's during Bike Night. If we did it 2 or 3 weeks in a row then I'm sure we would start losing interested people, but not if we do it just once.

As far as the rides go Doc, who is saying we aren't doing weekend rides? Why can't we do weekday/night rides as well? This is all about supplementing bike night. If you don't participate you aren't missing out on the core bike night experience in any way, and it can only help foster that feeling of community. Why do you care when these rides are taking place? If you want to do a weekend ride then bring it up!

We aren't here to shit on each others ideas, and I haven't seen anybody doing that. They are just presenting different options. Personally, I would much rather have too many options to choose from than not enough, so keep on bringing out the ideas. Just because somebody has an idea doesn't mean we have to do it.

[AHAMAYs2]

We aren't here to shit on each others ideas, and I haven't seen anybody doing that. They are just presenting different options. Personally, I would much rather have too many options to choose from than not enough, so keep on bringing out the ideas. Just because somebody has an idea doesn't mean we have to do it.

[MotoFreak]

First and foremost, the conversation between the Non-VTer's is hilarious in the midst of our little storm!

Second: Parker, thank you for the post about keeping things positive, one team-one fight. You're a good kid and have been a wonderufl addition to the VTBN Crew (and Adam too ).

I've been following the conversations, and was really impressed with last weeks meeting, ideas, and discussion. I am on a new schedule, and sadly will also miss next weeks gathering (night shift), which sucks, because we do have some things to hash out and I would like to be there! As far as everything goes, I agree with Justin back on Pg 1 that we are going in circles.
The quick and sleazy is last year we tried some new things, like Creamee Runs, meeting at A&W, Dealer Nights, etc. Basically everything ya'll are discussion right now, we did already attempt, and it was...less than succesful. Rather, it did not turn out like we envisioned it, not to say that they were not fun. We need to stick to what we got, and what we advertise, and really, what our intentions and mission is as a group of riders who make VTBN what it is. To deviate from what we have created is really kind of self-destructive. We have all put a lot of thought, taken time, and for some of us, put a good amount of money into what we currently have as an event. We need to add, and build upon what we have. Not by changing the venue, or times, or activites, but bring more to Donny's. I am working with CycleWise on having a Ducati Expo at BN. Trying to get Dealers to come down, or other moto groups (CBE, Forsaken Sons, etc), making those attempts at building the community, these are things we need to look at more.

And, since everything is on the table. Doc, you're attendance and involvment had been low until recently. Nothing wrong with that, but we've all seen it, and what we are seeing here now is that we all struggle with your "here tonight, gone tomorrow" style of leadership when it comes to little events and activites done through the event.
Having a Sunday morning ritual would be sick, lets make it happen. Or doing the Thursday night Churn 'n Burn that I put together in 08. These are all great options to add outside of Tuesday night, but still under VTBN and what we believe in. I for one think it would be cool if we had a Sunday Morning Ride for the Crew, and then put an Easy-Up at the top of 17 with a Bike Night Banner, some chairs, some bikes, and Advertise out Event. Thats the kinda shit we need to get the word out.

What we really need to do is, get our advertisments up this spring with our Street Team, establish our schedule again, get any rides we want to do scheduled, nail down a day or two to get a weekly VTBN Crew Ride in, and then focus on putting The Big Event together, and call it a good year. We can work on little things here and there, but I think the name of the game is KISS. Keep It Simple Son...stupid just seems so harsh.

I love you guys, you're great, keep tossing out ideas, pass em around, shoot em down, whatever. We got time! Lets keep developing on our Concours Event too!

[NobodySpecific]

There are a few reasons why I feel like last season was possibly more of an anomaly than a true indication of success or failure. Firstly, Adam, Parker, and I were not around () and secondly it was a super wet beginning to summer, which certainly kept people away.

On that note, though, I do like the idea of trying to set up different regular (or at least semi-regular) events for different days of the week. I know that not everybody can make it, but that's kind of the point. You can't make Bike Night on Tuesday? That's ok, but can you make the Sunday morning ride? Or the Thursday night whatever? Great! If we have more options then we will attract more people, who might know people that are free for some night that they themselves aren't free for, which grows our numbers. We might not be able to get 100 people on Tuesday, but if we can get 35 different people for each event, I would still consider it a success since people's schedules can change and maybe they work a bit harder to free themselves up for Bike Night. If we get people involved, they will be more willing to make a sacrifice.

The real problem lies in organizing all of these different events, which is why maybe a first Sunday of the month we always have a ride, and then if people want to do more, then great. And we can't be discouraged if we get weak participation at first, we just need to keep trying to get the word out. The key is that we need to have a plan so that everybody can advertise the same thing.

[catamount]

I really feel like a facebook group for VTBN would be a great way to organize stuff and promote the weekly event.

I sorta hate facebook most of the time but... everyone has it (unlike a NESR forum logon).

If the group posted info about a ride, a meetup at A&W, a creemee run... every group member sees that note the minute they logged in.

I know a FB group has been shot down in the past, but it's my $.02 to upping attendance.

[NobodySpecific]

I really feel like a facebook group for VTBN would be a great way to organize stuff and promote the weekly event.

I sorta hate facebook most of the time but... everyone has it (unlike a NESR forum logon).

If the group posted info about a ride, a meetup at A&W, a creemee run... every group member sees that note the minute they logged in.

I know a FB group has been shot down in the past, but it's my $.02 to upping attendance.

Actually, we had talked about a Yahoo! group and an e-mail list, but that's a way better idea. It also allows people to find us, instead of us having to find them (by way of getting their e-mail address and adding it to the list). It also cuts down on inbox clutter.

[markbvt]

maybe a first Sunday of the month we always have a ride...

I like the idea of doing a VTBN ride on the first Sunday of the month.

Presumably a VTBN Sunday ride like that would be fairly short-distance, and since it would be likely to be a pretty large group including riders of all skill levels, we'd need to keep the pace moderate and make sure people don't get themselves in over their heads. Because of this, I'd suggest that we limit these rides to the first Sunday, not every Sunday.

But that said, if these prove popular, maybe we could continue to do a general ride on the first Sunday, but then add more focused rides on the third Sunday of the month in which we offer a few options. For example, maybe Bill could take a group of sportbike riders down to the gaps or other twisties. I could lead a dirt-road ride, or a long-distance loop through the Adirondacks or NH. Maybe Doc would be willing to lead a ride for inexperienced riders (since he IS an MSF instructor!) that would teach them how to ride in a group and how to choose a line through the twisties. Other people could lead other types of rides according to their interests and abilities.

If we do it right, these rides could draw in a whole lot of people who currently might not ride as much as they'd like because they don't have people to ride with or don't know the roads well. Beginners especially, whom we can shape and form into non-squids.

--mark

Edit: The Facebook page idea is a good one. You're right, practically everyone's on FB (for better or worse), so it's a great way of reaching people.

[NobodySpecific]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...6848290&ref=nf

Boom!

Ideas? Pictures? Suggestions? post them here, PM me, or e-mail vermontbikenight at gmail dot com. I can give control of that e-mail address or the group to anybody that wants it, or I'll keep it, either way is fine by me.

[markbvt]

One minor point -- all the Facebook groups I've joined in the past kind of get lost because they don't seem to send out any kind of status updates or anything. So you actively have to go look at them.

Would it make more sense to set it up as something people become fans of? This way status updates, etc, appear on people's walls. I'm thinking the same way Das Bierhaus did their Facebook page.

BTW, thanks for getting the ball rolling, Keith!

--mark

[catamount]

Nice!

I'll bet we're going to be pleasantly surprised at how many members this group has by the time "riding season" starts (no comments from the peanut gallery, mark).

One minor point -- all the Facebook groups I've joined in the past kind of get lost because they don't seem to send out any kind of status updates or anything. So you actively have to go look at them.

Would it make more sense to set it up as something people become fans of? This way status updates, etc, appear on people's walls. I'm thinking the same way Das Bierhaus did their Facebook page.

BTW, thanks for getting the ball rolling, Keith!

--mark

What he said.

[NobodySpecific]

There's a lot less that seems to be able to be done with a fan page, but I will set one up. FYI, you can send every member a message through the group, so the word could still get out.

[markbvt]

I guess the question is whether we would need to use the extra features on a FB group page or not. We could always just direct people here for actual discussions.

--mark

[NobodySpecific]

I guess the question is whether we would need to use the extra features on a FB group page or not. We could always just direct people here for actual discussions.

--mark

But they people have to sign up for an account, and that's a step that a lot of people won't be bothered to do. I think I found the type of page I was looking for those, so we might be good to go.

[markbvt]

But then people have to sign up for an account, and that's a step that a lot of people won't be bothered to do.

Good point.

--mark

[NobodySpecific]

So I can't add pictures here at work. I may or may not get a chance to change the picture this weekend.

Fan Page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Vermon...t/329184644960

[MotoFreak]

Cool Cool, you guys rock.

A group ride the first Sunday of the month sounds great, and the FB Page, genius. I did have an email list at one point, but it never generated any responses, and I hated sending out the emails.

I think that if we had a few people (mark, Keith, Twins) invovled with managing and organizing different rides, we could accomplish the goals we set forth from our mission statement, generate buzz, attract different riders, and go on great rides. Not everyone is into the posing scene, and all of us love to ride, but not everyone is into chillin for 3 hrs! Just in whatever we do, we have to be consistent in our approach; as in we promote proper gear, responsible and respectful riding, and passing on knowledge of the sport. I for one, am very excited about this summer and the opportunites to be had.

[Trouble]

My folks ride with that early morning "BMW" group that rolls out of Franks. They all gather at Franks, go for a couple hour ride as one big slow group, and then have breakfast together. After breakfast there is typically one big group that breaks off to go somewhere but generally speaking different groups split off depending on how long they want to ride and the pace they want to go. Nothing official, just pick who you want to ride with and go.

I generally like the model/idea of that group ride. I'm not a big fan of getting up that early on my weekend, and I'm not sure I'd want to make it a weekly thing. I do like that everyone rides together in the beginning and they make quite the scene at a restaurant when 20-30 bikes are lined up out front.

Just my 2c.