Would repaving Loudon road course...

[Imbeek]

Starting this thread so I don't hijack the thread about improvements to suggest to NHMS for motorcycle racing. Its a winter thread and I'm laid up after surgery (LOL)

In that thread, Pigman suggested repaving the whole road course; Besides the safety aspect, and given how much "local knowledge" there is at Loudon, I'm curious to hear opinions...if it were repaved, would that be likely to work to anyone's advantage, competitively?

In other words, would repaving be likely to have any effect on the point standings at the end of the season, or even the outcome of individual early season races? Or, does everyone going fast have pretty much equal knowledge of every bump, tarsnake, and irregularity that exists now, making it a level playing field either way?

I'm always amazed during track walks, how many reference points have been noticed and memorized by anyone who goes fast there, and especially by those who go really fast there...but I wonder if a young, fast expert with "only" 3 or 4 years experience there would run better against the guys with 20 years experience, if it was entirely repaved, forcing everyone to re-learn their RPs from the same starting point.

I'm don't race and I'm not near the speed of the guys I'm talking about now, but I've put in plenty laps there and go ok for a strictly track day guy. Seems to me that a slight advantage that exists for a fast old timer now might be erased short term by repaving, but that wouldn't last long, and wouldn't be enough of an equalizer to affect season ending standings any. Maybe affect a few races, early on?

I suppose an argument could also be made that improving the surface might decrease a slight lap time advantage held now by a racer with superior suspension, versus another racer with similar skills but slightly inferior setup/suspension (or expertise in being a test pilot to get it right, quickly). This advantage, if it exists, might last all season.

I'm thinking all this stuff together wouldn't change much. In fact, we probably could take the entire dash for cash field, drop them onto a track none have ever ridden before, with no practice, have a sighting lap, run a race, and have a pretty similar finish order to what we see now...

Thoughts/opinions?

[Paul_E_D]

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely.

[Pigman]

Yea......I think there may be a few tenths dropped Poss and maybe one or two that will have the hot set up but realistically if your fast then it will only get a bit faster with a repave... my 2Cents.


The real thought for me was it would probably save a few crashed if not a Lot of them and realistically be a Safer Track that will be more appealing to out siders to come and ride...

and bring in new Revenues instead of going to CT or NJ for a great surface or Poss attract an AMA Race or better???

[MaRce1o]

I'm thinking all this stuff together wouldn't change much. In fact, we probably could take the entire dash for cash field, drop them onto a track none have ever ridden before, with no practice, have a sighting lap, run a race, and have a pretty similar finish order to what we see now...

I think this hits the nail in the head pretty well. Over all yea i would love to see the road course repaved, i believe it was last done in 1996 so cars have taken their toll on it

[CBR929RE]

I don't think it would change a thing in terms of running order. The only difference I see is those top guys or even someone like you might get to a certain spot and their brain will tell them my crack rp is gone.

[odduc]

If an overall repave is in order. Why not add to it as I mentioned in the other thread? Yes, it will cost money. However, to most of the other points in this thread, it would definitely attract outsiders and, gasp, maybe even a pro race. This would add more revenue and much broader appeal.

[Imbeek]

I didn't wanna come off as a smartass (because Eric was pretty specific about what kind of feedback he was looking for, and "making pigs fly" wasn't included) but my proposal in the other thread wasn't to repave the existing layout, it was to design and pave a brand new layout out back, and incorporate a repaved turn 5 thru turn 8 section (only) into that new layout. Plus make it safe to ride in both directions. I rode the bowl the other way back in '89, it was fun as hell...

So the difference between that and extending the existing track, while keeping and repaving all of what is there now, is that a whole new layout out back could allay some of the safety issues that exist inside the walls of the oval.

[R7]

I'm thinking all this stuff together wouldn't change much. In fact, we probably could take the entire dash for cash field, drop them onto a track none have ever ridden before, with no practice, have a sighting lap, run a race, and have a pretty similar finish order to what we see now...

Thoughts/opinions?

This is my first thought, I'd bet the same top runners will still position the same with fresh pavement, or a new track.
The only person(s) really to benefit from a full repave, are the guys with a suspension service. Thinking in terms I understand (dirt bikes) it'll be like switching the same bike from Enduro use, to MX use

[TTD]

Obviously an all new layout would be the best move, but I don't think it needs to be entirely new...

- if the 3/10 area changed,
- and the 8/9 area...

that would be huge in terms of safety!


Then repave it so it's a consistent grip all around.

Doing that would be a huge improvement and I think would get the best R.O.I.

[GixerJockey]

I don't mean this to come off as a Nascar bitch...

I don't think there's any chance in hell of a total repave, or even a significant, partial repave. Don't forget that Loudon has a "big show". And it sure ain't the road course. This isn't some small racetrack that makes their entire living off of armature car and motorcycle racing like Thompson, NYST, Stafford Springs, or even Waterford Speedbowl. With the massive amount of cash that Nascar brings to the track, they could do away with the road course all together and barely feel the hit in gross revenue. An AMA race wouldn't change the situation at all. He'll, we can't even watch it on tv anymore. You think people will travel to the bustling metropolis of Loudon NH to come see an AMA race? Hell no.

Tony mentioned ROI in his last post. Unfortunately for us motorcycle guys, I really don't think there's any ROI to be had in the track's eyes. They aren't going to attract more track day orgs. The current ones all fight to cater to the same, small group of customers. LRRS isn't going to drastically increase in participants or spectators. CCS racers could care less about our seprecate series. AMA can't even run a full season, so they sure aren't going to bring a race to NH. It will take forever to recuperate the investment. They will pour money into the track surface and still generate the same revenue that the current POS road course generates.

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I don't see what the track has to gain by dumping a pile of money into the road course.

[TTD]

I don't know a lot about paving, but I thought it was fairly cheap to do a skim grind and resurface? (as opposed to digging up all the asphalt and relaying an entire new coat?

Regardless - with other tracks coming on line, putting some money into the track should keep people coming back. I know we don't compare to Nascar, but all the orgs that use the road course must add a nice amount to the bottom line?

[GixerJockey]

I seem to remember being told that the two Nascar events account for 90% of the annual revenue.

If there's any truth to that, they could easily shut down the road course. And feel almost no financial strain what so ever. If someone told me that I could take a 10% pay cut, and only work 2 months out of the whole year, I'd be all over it.

Granted, other things come into play, like maintaining a staff, keeping the facility in order... But, the road course is no real positive income generator.

[TTD]

The road course must make financial sense or they would not have it.

With the new tracks threatening the number of days NHMS gets rented each year, my guess is they are looking to make cost-effective improvements to keep the renters coming back.

[Imbeek]

An AMA race wouldn't change the situation at all. He'll, we can't even watch it on tv anymore. You think people will travel to the bustling metropolis of Loudon NH to come see an AMA race? Hell no.

I agree with most of your post and even with this part...except for 1 week of the year, when who knows how many tens of thousands of motorcycle people descend on Laconia from all over the Northeast, and beyond, for bike week. When the AMA national used to run Loudon at the end of Laconia Bike week, it was a BIG deal. PACKED, and bigger than just the race itself. Bring the fans, and the factories will come. Neither will happen without changing the track but I'm no more optimistic than you on that happening

[odduc]

You think people will travel to the bustling metropolis of Loudon NH to come see an AMA race? Hell no. .

The AMA races used to attract thousands of people. On race day, the traffic was similar to that of the Nascrap races. I believe they could once again attract the same numbers, if the track were re-configured and improved. Of course, the AMA has to get their shit together and find a managing group that actually cares about the sport. Consider the history of the Loudon Classic. I think it's only second to Daytona as being one of the longest standing motorcycle roadraces in the country.

[TTD]

Personally, I don't see AMA coming to Loudon as long as we have Turn 2 in the picture... and I don't see a future road course that does not have Turn 2 in the picture.

I would also like to see the AMA races of the past, but I think those days are over. If anything, bikes have gotten even faster.

A course like NJ is the only option... large runoff areas for all corners... and I don't see any of the New England tracks having that. Possibly Club Motorsports in NH, but I'm not sure they will have all the ancillary stuff... and they are pretty far from the population bases.

[Imbeek]

Personally, I don't see AMA coming to Loudon as long as we have Turn 2 in the picture... and I don't see a future road course that does not have Turn 2 in the picture.

I would also like to see the AMA races of the past, but I think those days are over. If anything, bikes have gotten even faster.

A course like NJ is the only option... large runoff areas for all corners... and I don't see any of the New England tracks having that. Possibly Club Motorsports in NH, but I'm not sure they will have all the ancillary stuff... and they are pretty far from the population bases.

Not even with a track at Loudon "out back"? New Jersey or any of those other tracks don't have Laconia, or any, bike week next door. Focused marketing that way...still works at Daytona.

I don't know if a track in back could work with the need for nascar parking, of course

[odduc]

Correction: The Loudon Classic is the longest running motorcycle race in the country.

[tsorfas]

Correction: The Loudon Classic is the longest running motorcycle race in the country.

That is correct

[TTD]

Not even with a track at Loudon "out back"?

If they were able to put the entire track outside the oval, then yes. My point is I don't see that happening.

The section from turn 10 to Turn 3 will continue to be in the oval and that is the big sticking point for the AMA coming back.

You can revise 10 and 3 to make them much safer - but you can't do anything with Turn 2. It's not the rider that crashes that gets hurt there... it's the fact that they cannot slide out of the way, so in a race situation (imagine the start?)... it could get ugly.

Again, club racing proves it's a pretty safe track - but I don't see the AMA coming back as long as we have Turn 2 in the mix.

[Imbeek]

How do all the other courses that come into and out of ovals work it out? Would it require work to lengthen the tunnel under the oval or something to work it out where 2 could be made acceptable?

[OreoGaborio]

You could completely repave the entire existing road course with the best concrete known to man... the pro's WILL NOT COME.

You want Pro racing at Loudon? Build a dedicated road course from scratch. This is the only way they'll come and it's also the only way we'll get all new pavement. I can't imagine a set of circumstances where they would repave the entire road course as it currently exists.

[RandyO]

want better track, add more spectator seating so more money is made from Nascar racing, Loudon is one of the smallest seating venues on the Nascar circuit, most others are double the capacity

[ctbandit]

Seems like if they moved the entire road course outside the oval they could put stand up on that whole side of the track. I'm sure pigs would fly but..

want better track, add more spectator seating so more money is made from Nascar racing, Loudon is one of the smallest seating venues on the Nascar circuit, most others are double the capacity

[Slowpoke387]

Backing up a bit...I personally am not all that interested in the current AMA coming here anyway. It has become something far less than it used to be in the past. Economy and mismanagement have created such a lack of sponsorship that the big dogs don't participate anymore. That leads to waning interest in the sport, which leads to even less available sponsorship, and so on... For me the draw was always the factory riders riding unobtanium. With that long gone I can't see the track owners throwing a boatload of cash at a declining pro sport. I think they will tweak here and there and do just enough to keep the track rented to LRRS and as many track orgs possible in between the two big NASCAR events.