2015 LRRS Suggestions/Feedback

[Kurlon]

Josh, I would consider a proposal for where in the race schedule this would fit, if you haven't.

As written, the expectation is for this class to take over the P89 slot, so it'd run concurrently with LWGP as P89 does now. This allows riders in ULGP to use ULSB as a bump class for an additional race, same as occurs now for P89 riders. The big change would be motards would now potentially be gridding for that race which they haven't in the past.

[OreoGaborio]

Looks good to me, dude.

[Kurlon]

One other note, because this class idea uses GP rules, downsizing machines IS legal. So if someone wants to short stroke an SV to 550cc, they're legal. In theory a destroked R6 down to an R4 is legal, but someone's going to be going the billet crank route for serious cash to make it happen, and if they can make 80hp in that config I'd be amazed.

[Mr. Kurtz]

Seems like you have this all figured out Josh. Good job

[scottieducati]

For what it's worth, not only was I a new regular P-89 / ULSB guy this year after a few years of working out niggles in a totally new bike.... I also brought a Novice towards the end of the year who just got into a Hawk as well. Add Brett's RVF to the list for next year, coupled with the sheer obscene amounts of Hawks at the last few rounds and I think many here are not giving the potential growth / grids for P-89 much faith. I also have had interest in one of two track-ready V4 Hondas I expect to have for sale next year. I'd push for getting motards OUT of the class, as they have plenty of places to run, but that's just me. IMO an "Ultralight GP" bike has nothing to do with a dirt bike on slicks and everything to do with high cornerspeed applications. You wanna run a single? Get a Moriwaki.

Edit: Thanks Josh for taking a bit of a lead on this! Other than providing for motards, I think you hit it out of the park.

[Kurlon]

So, if we want to force the motards to go elsewhere the single cylinder definitions need tweaking.

"Single cylinder, 5% over stock displacement, production dirt frames only" would need to go. The counter will be someone saying their dirt frame that they scratched with a file is now a one off GP frame, which by normal CCS rules would fly in the GP category. KTM 690s, Aprilia SXVs, etc would also still be legal without more clarification. We'd want to additionally include a note like P89 has now noting that "Motard style machines are note eligible for this class."

Selfish whine: This change means I can't use my 1992 WR250ZD as a 'b' bike for P89. Fear the antique two smoke!

[Mr. Kurtz]

Josh, keep in mind it is not unprecedented to simply word in an exclusion for a type of machines, like OEM dirt bike chassis bikes.

[cdovego]

You guys are really serious right now?

[Rada]

Solid work Josh. As much as I would like to have another class to run. I think we should keep our stinking SVs out of Ultralight. I also like your plan to save P-89. Keep at it. Maybe I'll race Maddie again this year...

[Mr. Kurtz]

Ha, I just realized Josh beat me to that. And here I thought I was adding useful info!

[Trouble]

As written, the expectation is for this class to take over the P89 slot, so it'd run concurrently with LWGP as P89 does now. This allows riders in ULGP to use ULSB as a bump class for an additional race, same as occurs now for P89 riders. The big change would be motards would now potentially be gridding for that race which they haven't in the past.

I like the rules as you've written them but not the time slot. The first row of P89 usually starts in row 15, sometimes 16. In one race last year I started so far back on the grid that I was beyond where the starting blocks were and I was on pole for the experts. P89 experts and amateurs launched in the same wave. If you substitute the existing ULSB grid in the P89 location we'll have the potential for racers starting damn near turn 12.

I'll probably catch all kinds of flack for this but I vote to keep the motards in the class. Their times are (generally) comparable and I think it made for great competition.

[Kurlon]

Hadn't thought of that, I was used to AM LWGP so I gridded in front of you and didn't think about how far back you were... d-oh! The race shouldn't be gridded with ULSB if we can avoid it, not sure where else to suggest it slot in though. I suspect there are going to be movements in what races run together one way or another with the ULSB change as it is.

[Kurlon]

You guys are really serious right now?

When have you seen me not take something seriously? (Que Oreo correctly pointing out our recent conv in this thread.)

[Yknot]

Rule changes affect all of us and should be taken seriously. For those of us who want to continue to see the grids grow and have a class to compete in, this is a potential solution to allow that to happen. Just fighting to have a place to ride bikes with our friends and not get run over.

[OreoGaborio]

(Que Oreo correctly pointing out our recent conv in this thread.)

[cdovego]

When have you seen me not take something seriously? (Que Oreo correctly pointing out our recent conv in this thread.)

It just seemed odd to me that your solution included cutting out other bikes.

It's all good, fight the good fight you believe in.

[Kurlon]

It just seemed odd to me that your solution included cutting out other bikes.

Depends on how you look at it. I'm starting with P89 as the base, and expanding the machines allowed in. The question is weather or not to invite motards in as well or not, as I'm modifying P89 that's entirely up to the existing P89 riders. If they decide not to, motards still aren't being cut out, they were never part of the P89 grid to begin with.

If you start with what LRRS is doing to ULSB, no bikes are being cut out on paper.

Or are you referring to a different bike that I've missed?

[Kurlon]

The conversation seems to have settled, I'm sending this in as a proper proposal:

Ultra-Light GP - Small bike tinkertown

Single cylinder, unlimited displacement, street legal or GP frames only
Two stroke, liquid cooled, pre-1990 model year, up to 375cc
Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, air cooled, non-desmodromic valves up to 900cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves up to 750cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, pre-1999 model year, up to 800cc
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 550cc
Three cylinder, air cooled, up to 900cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model year, up to 570cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1987 to 1996 model year, up to 500cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 400cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 750cc

Motard style machines are note eligible for this class.

The goal is to retain the variety of machines currently populating ULSB, encourage modern hyperlight machines coming onto the market to play and develop their machines without the restrictions of a supersport or superstock class while keeping out machines that can reasonably compete in a CCS based ULSB class, ala SV650s, Ducati 800s/796s, etc. It's also structured to accept existing P89 entries and where possible give them a build boost. Motards, as they have a native class and viable bump classes already, and are not currently P89 legal continue to be excluded.

The primary changes from the 2015 LRRS ULSB class are:

Singles get some restrictions, primarily motards are blocked from the class.
Modern two stroke 250 GP machines get bumped out.
Desmo twins restricted to keep CCS ULSB competitive builds out.
Modern liquid cooled twins displacement set to allow machines like the CBR500 to play and experiment with motor builds.
Triple restrictions lessened in hopes of some showing up.
Four cylinders expanded to allow machines currently outclassed in LWSB a place to play (RVF400s, etc).
Because we're under GP rules rather than Superbike, most displacement tiers are now open frames except where noted.

The hope is for this class to run in a race separate from ULSB allowing those that wish for a second race to have ULSB as a bump class where possible.

[OreoGaborio]

I totes wanna stuff a punched out cr500 motor in a 250gp chassis now.

(that's like the third time I've said "totes" today. wtf)

EDIT: HOLY CRAP, NOT AFTER SEEING PRICES ON EBAY!

[Kurlon]

You just missed out, there was a GS500E sporting a CR500 motor on the WERA forum.

You have no idea how hard it was for me to resist that combo...

[OreoGaborio]

Not sure I'd wanna buy a CR500 lump that came with a free GS500 chassis, but to each their own

[Degsy]

Ignore me. I'm not even here. carry on.

[Kurlon]

I'll probably catch all kinds of flack for this but I vote to keep the motards in the class. Their times are (generally) comparable and I think it made for great competition.

If the powers that be opt to go with the no-motards ver of the class, I wonder if we could slot in as a wave for the Motard race on Sundays? We know were mostly compatible time wise, and the motard grids don't look huge?

[maxim_X]

If the powers that be opt to go with the no-motards ver of the class, I wonder if we could slot in as a wave for the Motard race on Sundays? We know were mostly compatible time wise, and the motard grids don't look huge?

Usually that race only has 10-15 races total.

[Woodcraft]

Here is my suggestion - for what it's worth, I think that you might have am easier time getting this through if you don't try to exclude the motards. What I saw this as originally was to keep a class that was ULSB as it was last season. I think that you'll have more success with that approach than you would keeping P89 (which this is starting to morph into). In the spirit of wishing you guys have success with this proposal, I hope that you construct the class that you generate the maximum number of entries as that is the way that this will be something that is sustainable in the future.

The proposals are in hand, and the officials need to get together and discuss it. For now, the best course of action is to get as many of you as you can to email me, Tommy, Graham and Steve with your support of this proposal or whatever comes back. As opposed to the alternative of not having a class at all - I think that this is the best bet.