2015 LRRS Suggestions/Feedback

[maxim_X]

You should have 4 currently, ULSB, LW Sportsman, Supersingles and Motard.

Sportsman and now ULSB are SV classes. I know you can run a motard in the lightweight classes, but it's hard to make passes stick, even with similar lap ties. Last year everyone on SVs ran Supersport during the sportsman race. It gave the motards a class to battle in, but it was still an SV class. Like I said, not complaining, I'll likely race it either way.

[Kurlon]

Sportsman and now ULSB are SV classes. I know you can run a motard in the lightweight classes, but it's hard to make passes stick, even with similar lap ties. Last year everyone on SVs ran Supersport during the sportsman race. It gave the motards a class to battle in, but it was still an SV class. Like I said, not complaining, I'll likely race it either way.

SV650s aren't legal for LW Sportsman, Liquid twins are capped at 515cc, so even though they're on the track with you you're not racing them directly.

[maxim_X]

SV650s aren't legal for LW Sportsman, Liquid twins are capped at 515cc, so even though they're on the track with you you're not racing them directly.

Ahh. I misread it. Desmo-valves up to 650. Regular liquid cooled to 515.

[Philkinson]

Can someone explain the fuel to me? Don't really know the lingo of what VP and C12 are, I just pump the cheap stuff

[Kurlon]

C12 was VP's leaded, no ethanol fuel. 108 Motor octane, 117 Research octane, R+M/2 rating of 112.

Specs: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/downloa...eet.pdf?inline

If your machine is tuned to run on pump gas, it won't do anything for you and may cost you HP. You can however built to take advantage of the higher octane rating by running higher compression or more ignition advance as a means of squeezing more power out of your machine.

Sunoco Supreme is what I'm guessing is going to be offered as a replacement: Sunoco Race Fuels | Supreme

[Ductard]

Ahh. I misread it. Desmo-valves up to 650. Regular liquid cooled to 515.

Dammit. Here I've been sneaking out of G12 North for LW Sportsman every weekend so that I didn't get any competition from G11.

[Yknot]

I've ridden a stock bore SV and I am not worried, definitely not a killer for that class. Few more spots on the grid filled, better tighter racecraft and hopefully some better races is all good. I hope the rules are more strictly enforced then the finger wagging that happens for some fuel infractions. If not, then the Hawk will finally have to go on the mantel. I know I won't be investing much more in advancing the aging tech with this development. I experienced running against SVs at Daytona and the stock ones I could get but anything else was a blur on the banking at lap 4, straight up ugly. Motard guys will have a few more street bike lines to have to content with, but they deal with it now...a little.

[Kurlon]

Looking at lap times tells a bit different story:

Comparing the top 3 spots in ULSB vs LWSS and LWSB for each round this season (Tossing out machines that wouldn't be ULSB legal like Sandoz's Monster) shows LWSS consistently 2+ seconds a lap faster. LWSB can pull out another second. Granted, we don't know if any of the LWSB entries are overbores but considering Gaborio is running LWSS and LWSB on the same machine last I knew, and hitting the LWSB podium I don't think we've got many real firebreather SV/EXs in LRRS currently. The LWSS machines are absolutely legal, LWSB builds are as well as long as you don't exceed the displacement limit. Based on what the nutters across the pond are achieving within the more limited Isle of Man rules, 95hp + is quite achievable...

This is why I'm curious if we're going pure CCS rules, or if LRRS specific classes will be sticking around. I'm also curious where the demand was for this change to ULSB in particular...

If LRRS classes stick around, the 'ULSB orphans' for the most part can transition to P89. I'll be requesting the displacement definitions for P89 get updated to match ULSB so I have some place to run to as well.

If we go pure CCS... P89 dies. Formula 300 becomes UL Thunderbike; Motard, LW Sportsman get jettisoned, etc.

I put a good amount of time, research, sweat, tears and money into building for the class, so that I'm finally actually on a competitive mount instead of a no hope underdog. To hear that my effort was for nothing and I'm back to trying to will a GS500 to the front has me reconsidering my plans and goals for 2016. Seeing that post by Eric was a gut punch and I'm still not certain if I'm going to get up from it.

[Mr. Kurtz]

Josh, I don't think that was a literal "mirror CCS" meaning to eliminate every LRRS specific class, but as he said earlier, P-89 needs someone to champion it. Put your proposal to enlarge the P89 grids on paper and get it to the officials.

[tsorfas]

I think mirroring the CCS means allowing SVs in ulsb.
Doubt any of our classes going away.

Sorry Josh, I hope your hard work pays off bro

[Kurlon]

Josh, I don't think that was a literal "mirror CCS" meaning to eliminate every LRRS specific class, but as he said earlier, P-89 needs someone to champion it. Put your proposal to enlarge the P89 grids on paper and get it to the officials.

I don't think there is any way to really inflate the P89 grids into something worth while. And if we're not going to full CCS rules, why change ULSB?

[Mr. Kurtz]

I don't think there is any way to really inflate the P89 grids into something worth while. And if we're not going to full CCS rules, why change ULSB?

Didn't you have some suggestions about increasing the year range to accommodate some USCRA racers? I'm betting that will be well received by LRRS(hence the inclusion of USCRA bikes into F300, even though none came). Brett mentioned some minor adjustment taking him out of it too somewhere above.

I think the ULSB change is a nod to the fact that the LW classes are seeing large, higher HP bikes gaining traction, from the SS legal Monster 1100 EVO to the GP legal modified R6.

[tsorfas]

I don't think there is any way to really inflate the P89 grids into something worth while. And if we're not going to full CCS rules, why change ULSB?

Because R5 and Ducati 1100s

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't you have some suggestions about increasing the year range to accommodate some USCRA racers? I'm betting that will be well received by LRRS(hence the inclusion of USCRA bikes into F300, even though none came). Brett mentioned some minor adjustment taking him out of it too somewhere above.

I think the ULSB change is a nod to the fact that the LW classes are seeing large, higher HP bikes gaining traction, from the SS legal Monster 1100 EVO to the GP legal modified R6.

That's why I was saying we just need Mini twins classes... But whatever. I'll race even we end up only with scooter classes

[Kurlon]

Didn't you have some suggestions about increasing the year range to accommodate some USCRA racers? I'm betting that will be well received by LRRS(hence the inclusion of USCRA bikes into F300, even though none came). Brett mentioned some minor adjustment taking him out of it too somewhere above.

I think the ULSB change is a nod to the fact that the LW classes are seeing large, higher HP bikes gaining traction, from the SS legal Monster 1100 EVO to the GP legal modified R6.

Unfortunately I just don't see the USCRA riders coming over, other than Mike and the other Ducati racer who already run the class. We could open up the year range, drop the upside down fork rule that still hasn't been turned on, allow dirty / motard style bikes from that era, etc but I don't think it'd do the job and still look anything like the USCRA's Period 4. I think you'd have to treat it more like a 'vintage MW' class to get usable numbers, put the cutoff at say, fuel injection so you allow Honda F4s, Yamaha R6s before 2003, etc and you could have a class there, maybe? But now you've once again written off the LRRS USLB stable.

As far as the R5... it's not LWSB legal to begin with so who cares? A GP bike is not a valid reason to muck with SB rules. If you're concerned about it in LWGP you've got displacement room to beef your motor up to find moar powah! (You do in LWSB as well but most don't bother in LRRS it seems.) If you can kiss 95hp with 650cc and a stock crank in a liquid cooled twin, imagine what you can find with 800cc? Scared of monster 1100s? See note about 95hp at 650cc, 150cc available to add on...

Minor note Re Brett's RVF: Looks like the original ULSB definitions for inline fours were written based on Superbike being limited to North American machines only, which is why the RVF doesn't fall into the class. The SB rule set later on was opened up to road going machines from anywhere in the world but the individual class displacement limits were not re-inspected to make sure they still made sense in relation to the expanded range of bikes potentially eligible. Hence the existing 1992 cutoff, after that point in the US there wasn't a liquid cooled inline four to buy. Based on that, I have no objection to expanding the year range to cover his machines so he too can get clubbed by SVs in ULSB and thus not improving his situation any over where he's at now.

[Mr. Kurtz]

A GP bike is not a valid reason to muck with SB rules.

I understand your frustration, but since CCS has been allowing stock displacement SV650 into ULSB for at least a few years, I think the writing is on the wall. With the large number of SV650 bikes, and a the relatively small number of class appropriate ULSB specific machines, allowing the SV into that class makes sense from an entry/grid perspective.

[nhbubba]

What is the bike of choice for LWSB/SS in CCS? What does the SV lose to?

[Yknot]

I understand your frustration, but since CCS has been allowing stock displacement SV650 into ULSB for at least a few years, I think the writing is on the wall. With the large number of SV650 bikes, and a the relativesmall number of class appropriate ULSB specific machines, allowing the SV into that class makes sense from an entry/grid perspective.

I don't understand the logic here if there are already several classes that the SV's are in already and force the ULSB specific bikes out (singles, older twins, air cooled whatevers). I know that all the SV guys love it to have another class (and there certainly are a lot of them) but I think it just forces out all the alternate bikes to the already small number of alternative classes. Pretty disappointing but the money goes with numbers.

[Kurlon]

Grabbing EX LWSB results off of Championship Cup Series, in order of finish:

Homestead - Mar 12 - 15: Duc 1000, Duc 1000, Bimota 1000, Suzuki 650
Autobahn Country Club - May 2 -3: Suzkui 650, Suzkui 650, Buell 1200, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Buell 1200, Suzuki 650
NJMP - May 2 - 3: Suzuki 650cc, Suzuki 650cc, Suzuki 650cc, Ducati 1000, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Ducati 1100, Buell 984, KTM 390, Kawasaki 250, Kawasaki 650 (Savas)
Blackhawk Farms - May 16 - 17: Buell 1200, Suzuki 650, ???, Suzuki 650, Kawasaki 390???
Summit Point - May 23 - 25: All 8 are Suzuki 650
Palm Beach International - May 24 - 25: All three Ducati 1000
VIR - June 13 - 14: Suzuki 650, Moriwaki 250, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Honda 400 (ScottieDucati)
Homestead - June 20 - 21: Ducati 1000, Ducati 1000, Ducati 1000, Bimota 1100, Suzuki 650
Daytona - Oct Race of Champions: Ducati 1100, Kawasaki 650 (Savas), Suzuki 650, Ducati 100, Suzuki 650, Suzuki 650, Ducati 800 (Pasta!)

So, to answer your question Colin, it depends on where you go. Most places, the SV650 is still top dog in LW. In Florida the Ducs are 'king' but there are also very few entries running so you're not exactly comparing to a deep field.

Speaking of, holy crap grids SUCK outside of LRRS for UL and LW. For comparison:
April LRRS EX LWSB - 21 entries, 19 starters
May LRRS EX LWSB - 19 starters
June LRRS EX LWSB - 20 entries, 14 starters
July LRRS EX LWSB - 24 entries, 19 starters

No wonder they can play fast and loose with grids and entries right up till the flag drops... pre-grid can keep track of them in their head without taking their shoes off.

[cdovego]

No wonder they can play fast and loose with grids and entries right up till the flag drops... pre-grid can keep track of them in their head without taking their shoes off.

CCS isn't the only race org that allows registration up to green flag drop.

[nhbubba]

I don't understand the logic here if there are already several classes that the SV's are in already and force the ULSB specific bikes out (singles, older twins, air cooled whatevers). I know that all the SV guys love it to have another class (and there certainly are a lot of them) but I think it just forces out all the alternate bikes to the already small number of alternative classes. Pretty disappointing but the money goes with numbers.

I'm inclined to agree. As an SV rider, I was pretty happy with the number of races I could enter in and have a chance of being competitive. I don't understand the need for a change either. I don't think I was out gunned by faster machines much; just out ridden by faster riders.

[tsorfas]

Well LWGP and GTL won't be SV classes next year with 6+ R6s and ducatis.

So that leaves lwss and lwsb. So I assume that's why ulsb opens up again

- - - Updated - - -

Well LWGP and GTL won't be SV classes next year with 6+ R6s and ducatis.

So that leaves lwss and lwsb. So I assume that's why ulsb opens up again

[Kurlon]

Well LWGP and GTL won't be SV classes next year with 6+ R6s and ducatis.

So that leaves lwss and lwsb. So I assume that's why ulsb opens up again

Zlock Racing 87mm big bore kit
Stroker Crankshafts ? MPHOhio Stroker billet crank

787cc, 100+ hp (before stroking) of R5 stomping fun. There is nothing new on the Ducati front and they haven't pushed the SV off the podium, no reason to think they magically will now.

[Woodcraft]

Couple questions Eric, is the new track configuration dead or just not happening for next year?
Also, is there a way to get an insert (like on a sheet of paper) that highlights new rules or changes with the new rule book? I like following rules, but not a fan of having to read the whole rule book every year and trying to find them amongst the hundred other rules that have stayed the same for the last several years.
Call me lazy, I guess.

Good point on the changes "highlight" page....worth mentioning. As for the new configuration, it's just not happening next year. I think between now and then we'll get some smoothing of bumps and some other upgrades. My guess for this reconfiguration - 2018.

Other questions: CCS "mirroring" means F40 classes & ULSB - the stuff we both run. LRRS specific classes will stay as long as they are supported by entries.

[tls25rs]

Other questions: CCS "mirroring" means F40 classes & ULSB - the stuff we both run. LRRS specific classes will stay as long as they are supported by entries.

Any comment on the concerns that people here have raised on the ULSB changes?

[Kurlon]

Any comment on the concerns that people here have raised on the ULSB changes?

I'm going to go out on a limb a bit... Normally Eric is really good about providing the reasoning behind a given change, even if it may not be popular. If he's not chiming in any more than to confirm what the rulebook is going to say when printed I'm guessing either he doesn't have more detail or what he's got will start more of a shit show than just my passive aggressive bitching on here?