2015 LRRS Suggestions/Feedback

[GingahNinjah]

Eric any chance that we can get the 6" # rule updated to perhaps no numbers smaller than say 4"? 6" numbers are getting increasingly harder to fit on bikes.

[Yknot]

Looking at lap times tells a bit different story:

Comparing the top 3 spots in ULSB vs LWSS and LWSB for each round this season (Tossing out machines that wouldn't be ULSB legal like Sandoz's Monster) shows LWSS consistently 2+ seconds a lap faster. LWSB can pull out another second. Granted, we don't know if any of the LWSB entries are overbores but considering Gaborio is running LWSS and LWSB on the same machine last I knew, and hitting the LWSB podium I don't think we've got many real firebreather SV/EXs in LRRS currently. The LWSS machines are absolutely legal, LWSB builds are as well as long as you don't exceed the displacement limit. Based on what the nutters across the pond are achieving within the more limited Isle of Man rules, 95hp + is quite achievable...

This is why I'm curious if we're going pure CCS rules, or if LRRS specific classes will be sticking around. I'm also curious where the demand was for this change to ULSB in particular...

If LRRS classes stick around, the 'ULSB orphans' for the most part can transition to P89. I'll be requesting the displacement definitions for P89 get updated to match ULSB so I have some place to run to as well.

If we go pure CCS... P89 dies. Formula 300 becomes UL Thunderbike; Motard, LW Sportsman get jettisoned, etc.

I put a good amount of time, research, sweat, tears and money into building for the class, so that I'm finally actually on a competitive mount instead of a no hope underdog. To hear that my effort was for nothing and I'm back to trying to will a GS500 to the front has me reconsidering my plans and goals for 2016. Seeing that post by Eric was a gut punch and I'm still not certain if I'm going to get up from it.

Yeah, after having some time to think about this I think you are right Josh and my first post was not on point. It will definitely push out the Hawks and motards to the back of the pack, although as Smutty said there ain't many of us. On a good note, Rick will have another race to pick up points in. It is a gut punch for sure, but it is a good time for me to make some kind of change. It was a good run!

[CEO]

If it comes to it, most of the hawk guys can probably sell their machines to track day riders and pick up a prepped SV for a net cost of close to $0.

[Kurlon]

Yeah, after having some time to think about this I think you are right Josh and my first post was not on point. It will definitely push out the Hawks and motards to the back of the pack, although as Smutty said there ain't many of us. On a good note, Rick will have another race to pick up points in. It is a gut punch for sure, but it is a good time for me to make some kind of change. It was a good run!

Fortunately it sounds like you've got one more year for P89 as Eric didn't mention it getting the axe this year.

I disagree with Smutty though, it's not like ULSB had super weak grids. Smallest number of starters was 6 (Whacky weather weekend IIRC) with a peak of 13. If we're rolling with the theory that the scary R5 in LWGP is going to scare away SVs, I have a hard time being convinced that the master plan of giving SVs another class is going to swell their numbers even more. There's a metric flotilla of them now at the track. How many does LRRS think are left in hiding hoping to come out of the woodwork?

In the mean time, you've potentially lost prior entries that no longer have a home. Even odder, they're opting to do this just as proper LRRS ULSB candidates are coming back on the market. The small bike population is growing by leaps and bounds, both in rider counts and variety of models. Honda has 500cc twins and is showing off a small bore twin concept, all of the marques (Even BMW now) are bringing out street singles, Yamaha has their small twin as of this year, Kawi's got a 400 inline four waiting in the wings, Ducati just announced an air cooled 400cc twin, KTM has redone the 690...

If it comes to it, most of the hawk guys can probably sell their machines to track day riders and pick up a prepped SV for a net cost of close to $0.

I'd wager that if they're on Hawks or other machines to start with they had no interest in the SV in the first place. That's why I didn't go with one when I plotted my course for ULSB. They do nothing for me, I just don't like them as a bike. Granted, Hawks also do nothing for me so... dodged a bullet by not building one of those either! Er, wait, crap.

[CEO]

I'd wager that if they're on Hawks or other machines to start with they had no interest in the SV in the first place. That's why I didn't go with one when I plotted my course for ULSB. They do nothing for me, I just don't like them as a bike. Granted, Hawks also do nothing for me so... dodged a bullet by not building one of those either! Er, wait, crap.

Well at this point with the rules change, it's not about like or interest. It's about, do you want to have a competitive machine to race against all your friends in a number of classes. If they want to find something else that fits the bill, go ahead. But the hawk will no longer cut it, and the SV is the obvious front runner for that choice. That's all I'm saying.

[Kurlon]

Well at this point with the rules change, it's not about like or interest. It's about, do you want to have a competitive machine to race against all your friends in a number of classes. If they want to find something else that fits the bill, go ahead. But the hawk will no longer cut it, and the SV is the obvious front runner for that choice. That's all I'm saying.

Which is why I'm saying this change is going to cost LRRS entries. LRRS recognized this when they purposely didn't match CCS in altering the class back in the day, why they think the calculus has changed now I'd be really interested to hear.

[tls25rs]

If it comes to it, most of the hawk guys can probably sell their machines to track day riders and pick up a prepped SV for a net cost of close to $0.

Going out on a limb and guessing that you may not understand fully just how much money and time some of these Hawk guys have into their Hawks as well as what the resale value of a race Hawk might be on the track day market. To get into a comparable SV I would guess would be far more expensive than a net $0 investment.

Never mind the fact that like Kurlon mentioned some of the Hawk guys ride Hawks because they were not interested in riding an SV in the first place.

[nhbubba]

I kind of agree but disagree. The bottom has just about fallen out of the gen-1 SV market. They are quite affordable, even in competitive trim. Kids these days are afraid of carburetors. Maybe or maybe not used race Hawk affordable, but on par, I think.

The real gut punch in my view is the time invested in building, tuning, and learning to be fast on the bike.

[tsorfas]

Josh it won't cost lrrs entries at all. It will actually increase them by giving the SV crowd (bigger than sumo + p89) an extra class to race. Therefore MORE entries more money for the series.

- - - Updated - - -

Also new riders are more possible to race an SV than another machine so that increases future potential and out of region racers visiting.

[Kurlon]

Josh it won't cost lrrs entries at all. It will actually increase them by giving the SV crowd (bigger than sumo + p89) an extra class to race. Therefore MORE entries more money for the series.

Also new riders are more possible to race an SV than another machine so that increases future potential and out of region racers visiting.

You don't grow your market by telling parts of it to go away. No new opportunities are created by this change, but a couple swaths of current, entry paying riders are being told to shove off / race less with no explanation as to why. Ultimately, it's NHMS's sandbox so if they want to be that way, fine. Barring any actual new info I'm done discussing it as I'm getting sick of getting pissed off every time I think about it.

(On the topic of potential out of region racers, I'll have to see if I can work out numbers of CCS/ASRA visitors during the classic vs AMA Sumo riders that showed up... I have a hunch as to who had more...)

[Woodcraft]

Any comment on the concerns that people here have raised on the ULSB changes?

Inevitably, when you make a change to a class structure rule some people are going to be happy and others are not. As we discussed the changes, everyone at the meeting (officials and riders alike) agreed that if we were to make changes that it made sense to follow the CCS structure for everything that was not an LRRS specific class. That makes the decisions much more simple, and gives our riders points to ride at Daytona for anything they want to do at the Race of Champions.

With the certain expansion of the 565cc 4 cylinder bikes next year, that takes the guys on SV's that are standard bore and makes it harder to win LWGP and GTL and the F40/F50 classes. As Ted Temple showed, you can still win on an SV against those bikes, but I think his bike is bigger than 650 (it's at least a superbike). So, ULSB legal SV's are going to essentially be SV Supersport bikes. Talking to Ricky Doucette, those bikes typically do high 16's and low 17's at the front. As such, SV's and Motards or UNLB specials (which typically do 17's at the front) are actually going to be quite competitive. The front running Motards and SV's should actually put on a good show. So, in the end the SS Sv's get a class and the ULSB winners should still be competitive....that's what I hope happens.

[Woodcraft]

Looking at lap times tells a bit different story:

Comparing the top 3 spots in ULSB vs LWSS and LWSB for each round this season (Tossing out machines that wouldn't be ULSB legal like Sandoz's Monster) shows LWSS consistently 2+ seconds a lap faster. LWSB can pull out another second. Granted, we don't know if any of the LWSB entries are overbores but considering Gaborio is running LWSS and LWSB on the same machine last I knew, and hitting the LWSB podium I don't think we've got many real firebreather SV/EXs in LRRS currently. The LWSS machines are absolutely legal, LWSB builds are as well as long as you don't exceed the displacement limit. Based on what the nutters across the pond are achieving within the more limited Isle of Man rules, 95hp + is quite achievable...

This is why I'm curious if we're going pure CCS rules, or if LRRS specific classes will be sticking around. I'm also curious where the demand was for this change to ULSB in particular...

If LRRS classes stick around, the 'ULSB orphans' for the most part can transition to P89. I'll be requesting the displacement definitions for P89 get updated to match ULSB so I have some place to run to as well.

If we go pure CCS... P89 dies. Formula 300 becomes UL Thunderbike; Motard, LW Sportsman get jettisoned, etc.

I put a good amount of time, research, sweat, tears and money into building for the class, so that I'm finally actually on a competitive mount instead of a no hope underdog. To hear that my effort was for nothing and I'm back to trying to will a GS500 to the front has me reconsidering my plans and goals for 2016. Seeing that post by Eric was a gut punch and I'm still not certain if I'm going to get up from it.

For what it's worth, P89, Formula 300, Formula 300 Challenge are LRRS specific classes - so we are left to do what we want. Going with CCS rules for CCS classes still gives us the freedom to create our own classes whenever we want to. Tommy considered the entries in P89 to be very low. I did the research today and found that the expert class averaged about 5 entries per weekend. Amateurs, non existent. 3 total entries for the entire year...averaging 0.4 entries per weekend. My advice to you is to have all of you who ride it petition Tommy, Graham and Steve to keep the class if you want to get it done. Tommy has called it dead, but the rulebook is not written yet. However, it will be soon.

[tls25rs]

Inevitably, when you make a change to a class structure rule some people are going to be happy and others are not. As we discussed the changes, everyone at the meeting (officials and riders alike) agreed that if we were to make changes that it made sense to follow the CCS structure for everything that was not an LRRS specific class. That makes the decisions much more simple, and gives our riders points to ride at Daytona for anything they want to do at the Race of Champions.

Thanks for the background on the decision making process. May not make it any easier to swallow for those invested in suddenly less competitive in this class bikes but at least gives some insight as to why it was done. Appreciate it!

With the certain expansion of the 565cc 4 cylinder bikes next year, that takes the guys on SV's that are standard bore and makes it harder to win LWGP and GTL and the F40/F50 classes. As Ted Temple showed, you can still win on an SV against those bikes, but I think his bike is bigger than 650 (it's at least a superbike). So, ULSB legal SV's are going to essentially be SV Supersport bikes. Talking to Ricky Doucette, those bikes typically do high 16's and low 17's at the front. As such, SV's and Motards or UNLB specials (which typically do 17's at the front) are actually going to be quite competitive. The front running Motards and SV's should actually put on a good show. So, in the end the SS Sv's get a class and the ULSB winners should still be competitive....that's what I hope happens.

Thinking about this a bit and I think that it was Jake Laforge that set the fastest laps of the ULSB races (possibly F. Dumas) and if I recall correctly his fast times were in the high 17's if these stock bore SVs do high 16's low 17's doesn't that push all the guys that were running at the front of ULSB to the back of the pack? Admittedly it will be incentive for them to go faster.

[Kurlon]

So, ULSB legal SV's are going to essentially be SV Supersport bikes. Talking to Ricky Doucette, those bikes typically do high 16's and low 17's at the front. As such, SV's and Motards or UNLB specials (which typically do 17's at the front) are actually going to be quite competitive.

New info, I'm back.

I'm curious Eric why your expectation is for any SVs running ULSB to be in SuperSport trim? The few Superbike SVs I have good knowledge of have all been stock bore which would make them ULSB legal as well? Are there really more big bore SVs lurking in LRRS than I assume?

On P89, I've no idea how to expand that class's draw without sabotaging it for the bikes already running. There are lots of legal machines running with the USCRA but it appears there is no interest in crossing over based on the lack of entries from them. (To be fair, it's hard as an LRRS rider to justify crossing over to them, they cost more both in licensing and entries for far less track time, and some of their 'lines' on track are truly scary.) The one hole in both LRRS and USCRA versions of the class is the blocking of 'superbiker' setups from the era that were the progenitors of modern Motards. I don't think they'd be disruptive, but I also don't think there are enough of them out there to show a bump in attendance this year even if allowed. Switching to something like WERA's vintage classing that uses a definition based on how old the bike is at the time of entry might work better? (You end up with a sliding scale, so you've got a class for 10 year old bikes, 15, etc. As bikes get older they automatically 'age out' into the next lower tier as time goes on and more modern tech enters from the top.)

Edit: And thank you for the reasoning behind the change, agreed that I don't like it but at least now I know why. I'll argue we're already going against the basis of that decision by not rolling F300 over to UL Thunderbike rules but that's a discussion that can be had at Makris or Saturday center garage potluck.

[Trouble]

... Tommy considered the entries in P89 to be very low.... Tommy has called it dead, but the rulebook is not written yet. However, it will be soon.

Here's my perspective and yeah, I'm just one racer. I get it. Decisions are made for the greater good.

I've braced myself for what I figured was the inevitable loss of P89. It would be a bummer for the few of us on Hawks and the EX500's that have been racing in it. It's been a light class for a couple years and without amateurs it's not surprising that it's on the chopping block.

The introduction of SV's into ULSB on the same year, well that's a real kick in the nuts. I've won that class for the last two years and never turned better than a 19.6. The fastest riders in ULSB are turning basically an 18.0 and they don't race very often. Now they are going to introduce bikes that regularly turn 16's and 17's. Ouch. I guess we'll all have to find a way to drop a couple seconds to even get on the podium. There has been a good group of riders hot on my heels keeping me honest. Most of them are motards and I'll miss racing with them.

So, ULSB legal SV's are going to essentially be SV Supersport bikes.

So you're saying the ULSB legal SV's already have a class they are extremely competitive in but need a second, very similar one, at the expense of the bikes currently running ULSB? 8 of the top nine finishers in LW Supersport were on SV's in October.


Yeah, I know. Lots of sour grapes here...

[Johnny B]

Eric any chance that we can get the 6" # rule updated to perhaps no numbers smaller than say 4"? 6" numbers are getting increasingly harder to fit on bikes.

We used to require 8" numbers until I got Don to lift the requirements out of the WERA rulebook. I just rechecked WERA and they're holding the line at 6".

[Yknot]

wow..no P89 kills my plans for next year. I need the number of the trackday guys that will trade me a race SV for a $10,000 Hawk.

[Kurlon]

Well, P89 hasn't been killed just yet unless I'm misreading Eric's post. Sounds like 2016 will be the last year for it though without an uptick in participation.

[Trouble]

For what it's worth, P89, Formula 300, Formula 300 Challenge are LRRS specific classes - so we are left to do what we want. Going with CCS rules for CCS classes still gives us the freedom to create our own classes whenever we want to.

Maybe there's a solution here. ULSB can go with CCS rules but LRRS can create another class with the existing ULSB rules. LRRS actually gains entry fees and everybody is happy. Win - win

Classes: Mirror CCS. This means have 3 F40 Classes (LW, MW and UNL F40). SV650's that are standard bore legal for ULSB. There was a concern on the tracks part about adding the liter bike F40 class because they were concerned about the entry level. The proposed concession, which was universally agreed as acceptable, was that if any race averages less than 5 entries over the course of the season only the champion gets entry credit bonuses (not 2nd and 3rd as they do now).

So the track is open to having races with less than 5 entries over the course of the season but wants to kill P-89? What have we done to wrong them?

[cdovego]

Is it rude to suggest vintage racing? How old are your $10k hawks?

Josh - you didn't even turn your fzr on last season, did you?

I love each and every one of of you, for the record.

[Kurlon]

Is it rude to suggest vintage racing? How old are your $10k hawks?

Josh - you didn't even turn your fzr on last season, did you?

I love each and every one of of you, for the record.

As I noted above... the vintage racers have a... different take on things... I can handle playing once or twice a year with them but only as long as I'm also racing with a modern org ala LRRS. If I just tried to play in the vintage sandbox alone I'd end up on the news in a bad way.

On my FZR, it's been run this year, just not on track. I did run the endurance race thanks to Doug, external factors crimping my budget would not allow me to play with LRRS otherwise which has chaffed hard. That's part of why this rules change is hitting me hard, I've been trying to make sure everything is lined up for a normal season next year except now my machine is suddenly not competitive. When I fuck up, it's one thing, when I do everything right and something external says screw you, it's frustrating as all hell.

[csmutty]

Vintage racing is more like a track day than racing.

[OreoGaborio]

It's tough for me to see how making SV's legal for ULSB will increase the grand total number of LRRS entries or the number of racers. In fact, I think in the long run it will actually hurt the bottom line by driving away the racers who are already trying to find their niche on a non-SV lightweight bike... racers who help round out the rest of the fields that the SV's dominate.

There's already a good number of classes that the SV is readily competitive in; LWSS, LWSB, LWGP, GTL, Thunderbike, F40L and F50L for the old guys, and very few of us race in all of them and are looking for more.

BOTTOM LINE: Yes, opening ULSB will draw SV's onto those grids to help fill them up, but I feel it'll just dilute the competition without increasing the bottom line.

You're just shuffling entries around (and losing some in the process), not creating more.

Sounds like change for the sake of change to me.

[Yknot]

Vintage racing is more like a track day than racing.

This.

And it isn't rude just uninformed. I have a dog in this fight but it isn't only about my poor choice in a race platform. It was also a class that had motards, GP 2 strokes, air cooled old Ducs and Monsters playing as well. All in a fairly narrow range of laptimes that will not continue with the SVs in the class. I don't understand what the difference between LWSS and ULSB will be in the new class structure that would differentiate it to the point this change is needed. Seems like it would be another variant of an SV dominated class, looking at the previous results from LWSB and LWSS.

It seems there is a class that is needed below the "new" ULSB and the 300s that would allow some cross platform competition like ULSB has been for quite some time. Maybe revamp the LWSportsman? Entries there have been off this past season.

[Yknot]

Yeah, what Pete said.