body position question

[wookie]

I'm trying to work on my body position. I was wondering how far my ass should be out of the seat. My guess was moving one cheeck off? Is that about right?

Also, do you move forward/aft or keep the same seat location as you get off the side of the bike (moving forward/back seems to make a big difference, but I can't decide which way (or not at all) is better.)

The reason I ask. Sometimes, as I'm playing with body position, my rear wheel gets a squirely. Usually happens in turn three. Doesn't happen on the street, but I don't get off the bike quite as far on the street...except once today when I was shooting up rt. 17 (where I was hanging way off and the rear got squirliy). I'm trying to figure out why this happens.

One thought is that these are turns where I sometimes need to correct my line during the turn. But, even so, the reaction shouldn't be so intense.

So, I don't know if the cause is the location of my torso or inputs from my hands. As I move off the bike I tend to hold the bars more firmely. Maybe I'm giving unwanted inputs to the bars? When you move far off the bike, are you still able to refrain from increasing grip on the bars to hold onto the bike? I know I'm supposed to use my leg to hold onto the bike, but do you use the bars for balance or to hold onto the bike at all? When I get way, way off I feel like I'm barely holding on and I could get thrown off if bumped (or if a mosquito hit me).

[s a x m a n]

you are moving off the seat too late if it affecting your chassis

using turn 3 as and example, you as you enter the braking chute you want to get off the side of the bike as you are about the brake, using your left leg as support. Once you get your body into position you should not be moving at all ... it upsets the bike and give it that movement that you are feeling.

[zx1012r]

And in turn 3 you want to put all the weight on your pegs and get your ass off the seat. This helps smooth the bumps over the transition.

Mark Dages

[Trackday Guru]

you are moving off the seat too late if it affecting your chassis

using turn 3 as and example, you as you enter the braking chute you want to get off the side of the bike as you are about the brake, using your left leg as support. Once you get your body into position you should not be moving at all ... it upsets the bike and give it that movement that you are feeling.

I agree with both comments above.

Get your body position set and your braking done early so you aren't making unnecessary inputs and movements on the bike while in a turn (trail braking is another story here), as stated above this can upset your chassis if done improperly.
Get 1 cheek off the seat and maintain a light grip on the bars. Your grip should be firm enough to control the bike and make your steering inputs, but light enough to "feel" your front end and the signals it'll be sending you.

If you're leaning more forward or rearward when setting your body position, or even while turning, you'll affect the weight distribution of your bike. This affects the steering geometry by altering the effective rake, which will either make your bike turn quicker or slower depending on where you've moved your center of gravity.

As for correcting it remember this: concentration goes a long way on the street, and even farther on the track. The idea here is to lessen what your brain has to think about (and concentrate on) while riding.

If you can get yourself to the point where these movements are second nature, the better off you'll be, and the more your brain can concentrate on things that will make you faster/safer/better/more confident.

BTW - we go through body position at our events in a structured setting.

In MotoGP, Tony Elias for example has this weird "hell with your knee, drag your whole thigh" body position thing that he has apparently mastered. If you're not at that level, don't hang off too much. If you are - give me a call, I'll make a spot for you on our staff.

[RyanNicholson]

^ great advice and explanation

just remember that the point of getting off the bike is to keep the bike more upright. getting your ass off the seat will let your legs work as shocks for your bodyweight, which means the bike is much happier and will eliminate the squirrelly rear end since any bodyweight is just smooth weight on the pegs. esp in T3, if you're sitting on the seat your weight jars the bike and you're making the rear shock do a lot of unnecessary work.

another thing that made a difference for me, was remembering to keep my upper body in line with my hips...i used to scoot my ass over but leave my head centered(ish) over the windscreen....try getting your head off to the side, like over your inside hand.

another thing i try to do is keep my hands as light on the bars as possible and use just my legs to support my body. you should practically be able to lift your hands right off the bars. doing this will not only keep your bike in more control, but should naturally solve your forward/backward question. if your sitting too forward your going to feel like you have to put too much pressure on the bars. if you're sitting to far back you'll feel like you have to sit on the seat with all your weight.

keep your weight on your inside peg, and use your outside knee on the gas tank to support yourself and lean the bike down.

this is just advice from my experience and what i've been told....good luck

[Ken C]

I agree with what these guys said.

From an instructor's point of view, body position is something you know is right (or wrong) when you see it. So, it's tough to comment specifically to your situation.

From a rider's point of view, if you are tense, then you haven't found the right position that suits you... yet. A bit of instruction at a track day and some practice can help you with that.

[SVRACER01]

your head should be (approx) where your mirror would be or over your hand. drop that inside shoulder.
set up sooner.(get off the bike while/before you brake)
getting off the bike will make the bike behave alot differently. i know when i drastically changed the way i ride (dropping my shoulder, moving my head) the bike felt like it wanted to fall into the turn. it felt unstable. the only cure is more cornerspeed.
if you think you are too tense (holding on too tight)...then do the chicken dance. you should be able to flap your elbows up and down while riding. practice this and it will keep you relaxed.

[wookie]

Thanks for the helpful responses.

What is concerns me the most is that sometimes the rear wheel feels squirely and other times if feels planted. However, I can't figure out what I'm doing differently when the rear feels squirely (and this is frustrating). Based on the comments, I think the difference is that I'm holding onto the bars too tightly when I try to hang further (maybe too far) off the bike. I feel like I'm about to fall off the bike and so I'm not relaxed or smooth.

Anyway, I have a bunch of track days coming up in July and I will ask for input when I'm there.

SVRacer - that avatar looks like a good example of the body position you are describing. It is a helpful picture (I wish I could see where you leg is however).

[SVRACER01]

Thanks for the helpful responses.

What is concerns me the most is that sometimes the rear wheel feels squirely and other times if feels planted. However, I can't figure out what I'm doing differently when the rear feels squirely (and this is frustrating). Based on the comments, I think the difference is that I'm holding onto the bars too tightly when I try to hang further (maybe too far) off the bike. I feel like I'm about to fall off the bike and so I'm not relaxed or smooth.

Anyway, I have a bunch of track days coming up in July and I will ask for input when I'm there.

SVRacer - that avatar looks like a good example of the body position you are describing. It is a helpful picture (I wish I could see where you leg is however).

which leg? my inside leg in that turn is usually situated with the inside of my knee on the frame slider and the knee puck on the ground.

if you feel like you are falling off then you arent going fast enough. thats how i felt when i started really hanging off. i asked some faster guys about it (feeling like im falling off) and they said to counteract the weight of you off the bike you have to carry more cornerspeed. that is in fact what you are trying to do right? go faster, and be better at it? if you arent ready to go faster through the turns then only get out of the seat a half a buttcheek but maintain the head and shoulder movement. once you get that feeling of moving your head and dropping your shoulder the speed will come and youll find yourself getting further out of the saddle.
i should be an instructor

[RyanNicholson]

yea that makes sense...

just always make sure you're as smooth as possible. thats the name of the game with learning to corner faster, keep the bike happy.

[SVRACER01]

heres 2 pics of me in the same turn. (red #s is last year/NV) obvious differences here. head position, shoulder position, elbow position. lean angle of bike,etc.
there are a multitude of reasons why.
-im faster this year
-i was being lazy in the pic from last year
-i wasnt pushing last year because it was NV and i was prolly in the lead whereas the AM pic was from the classic weekend and i was pushing and chasing all weekend.
-i am also fully aware that my whole riding position/style changes when im chasing/pushing
i can ride all day like the NV pic and not tire myself out. 1/2- 2/3 of a cheek off the seat and just lean it in. 24s all day. i ride hard and get a whole cheek off and drop my head/shoulders and get my elbows out and im working hard and im doing 22s and 21s.

youre at a trackday. there are no trophies and you dont want to get tired. forget about getting out of the seat. work on getting your upper body where its supposed to be. over exaggerate if you have to. get used to being there. when that becomes 2nd nature then start sliding out of the seat a little. the more you get out of the seat (weight that is not "on" the bike) the faster you need to go to keep it stable. do just enough that its not work. if 1/4 of a cheek off the seat with proper upper body position works well for you then stick with that.

[Ken C]

if you feel like you are falling off then you arent going fast enough. thats how i felt when i started really hanging off. i asked some faster guys about it (feeling like im falling off) and they said to counteract the weight of you off the bike you have to carry more cornerspeed.

Uhmmm. This is true, but it's not the advice I would follow. The better way to progress is to match your current corner speed with a body position that feels "right". Yes, hanging off will "oversteer" the bike and more speed will counteract/correct the line, but adding more corner speed into the learning curve is asking for trouble.

Instead, keep your current speed and work on finding a relaxed position that will then encourage more corner speed, not the other way around.

[RyanNicholson]

Uhmmm. This is true, but it's not the advice I would follow. The better way to progress is to match your current corner speed with a body position that feels "right". Yes, hanging off will "oversteer" the bike and more speed will counteract/correct the line, but adding more corner speed into the learning curve is asking for trouble.

Instead, keep your current speed and work on finding a relaxed position that will then encourage more corner speed, not the other way around.

exactly. thats kinda what i was saying but didn't put it in the right words haha. when i first started everyone told me to stay smooth and speed will come naturally.

that avoids the panic mode that comes from trying to carry more speed

[SVRACER01]

yeah, i clarified that in my post after that. work on upper body position first, then lower. speed will come if thats what youre after.

[RyanNicholson]

thats really cool how you've got 2 identical pics from 2 different years....

i wish i had pics to compare when i was running 24's to now (just broke 16's classic weekend! sorry, i'm still pumped about it haha)

[SVRACER01]

thats really cool how you've got 2 identical pics from 2 different years....

i wish i had pics to compare when i was running 24's to now (just broke 16's classic weekend! sorry, i'm still pumped about it haha)

16s are fast. im on an SV though. ive wondered what i could do on a 600

[Ken C]

yeah, i clarified that in my post after that. work on upper body position first, then lower. speed will come if thats what youre after.

Now, THAT I can agree with!

[RyanNicholson]

we should trade bikes someday for a practice haha....i've always wondered what an SV would be like out there

[SVRACER01]

Now, THAT I can agree with!

i was getting there...im just a little slow sometimes

[SVRACER01]

.i've always wondered what an SV would be like out there

WORK! its alot like work.

heres a photo without that pesky ORP on it for ya

[RyanNicholson]

haha thanks, never even thought to use the thumbnail for my av

[Paul_E_D]

16s are fast. im on an SV though. ive wondered what i could do on a 600

The same or slower than you go on an SV. Adding HP will always slow a rider down for a while. Also, learning to go faster requires just that learning. THere's nothing on a bike that will make it happen without the learning part. It takes time as we all know.

[SVRACER01]

oh i dont expect to just go out there and just turn teens. but i bet in a weekend i could, especially if i was there for open practice. it might only be 19s but i think i could do it.

[sxlova07]

great thread to start wookie....plenty of information here that I will keep in mind on my next trackday

[wookie]

Thanks sxlova.

I think in the end, the only way to figure this out is by getting out on the track. It is just hard to wait for the next track day when you have an issue that is frustrating you.

BTW - I think I was talking to you last Tony's day. Where you in the Red group? I was riding the black speed triple.