Braking technique advice

[a13x]

Would the fact that initially I was on a slow ass bike, and slow through 10 so I wasn't drifting wide out of 10, and could eat a sandwich on my way to 11 contribute to my having time to go in to 11 straight up and down?

Still felt like I was slow enough on the KTM that trying to make a big 'S' out of 10 and 11 was excessive actually.

I think you're ready for the Advanced Riding School Get ready to drop a few seconds.

[butcher bergs]

I'm not sure who likes to post pics of themselves more, Chris or Alex.

[Kurlon]

I think you're ready for the Advanced Riding School Get ready to drop a few seconds.

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Did it once, A++++++ teaching, will take again!

[Mr. Kurtz]

I think you're ready for the Advanced Riding School Get ready to drop a few seconds.

That's something I'm planning on in my 2010 budget. Is the advanced school only on certain dates?

[Ken C]

Would the fact that initially I was on a slow ass bike, and slow through 10 so I wasn't drifting wide out of 10, and could eat a sandwich on my way to 11 contribute to my having time to go in to 11 straight up and down?

Still felt like I was slow enough on the KTM that trying to make a big 'S' out of 10 and 11 was excessive actually.

Turns 10 and 11 will eventually feel like a chicane as you get faster, albeit a mild chicane. Then, full throttle into T11 and brake without straightening the bike much, if at all, to brake and downshift.

[a13x]

I'm not sure who likes to post pics of themselves more, Chris or Alex.

I like posting pics of myself almost as much as I like name-dropping. It's because I have low self-esteem.

(not because I have intimate knowledge of the photos in my collection which illustrate the point I was trying to make)

FACEPUNCH!

That's something I'm planning on in my 2010 budget. Is the advanced school only on certain dates?

The Advanced Riding School takes place every single Friday before a LRRS weekend. The 2-Day School is only on a select one or two dates during the year. Schedule should be out soon.

[Mr. Kurtz]

The Advanced Riding School takes place every single Friday before a LRRS weekend. The 2-Day School is only on a select one or two dates during the year. Schedule should be out soon.

Cool, thanks!

[xsiliconkid]

Would the fact that initially I was on a slow ass bike, and slow through 10 so I wasn't drifting wide out of 10, and could eat a sandwich on my way to 11 contribute to my having time to go in to 11 straight up and down?

Still felt like I was slow enough on the KTM that trying to make a big 'S' out of 10 and 11 was excessive actually.

Just keep moving your off-full-throttle into T11 a wee bit later and later, you will get the idea the only way to keep things composed is to switch from leaning right to flopping left well before entering t11..... and then off the gas, on the brakes all while leaning left... actually it's a big rush to get that full throttle push coming down from T10exit leaning right and while still full throttle hauling the bike over to the left set up well before entering T11...

we all go thought it... into T11 upright a bit then brake/down shift then lean back left.....get over it quick for less complex outside passes on you and it all make things easier...

Hey that's me bolt upright on KTM 59.... Into T3.

For me the term trail braking means ---
Decreasing the trail of a bike's geometry by front braking.... not necessary trailing the brakes into a corner.. although that can be the result
Less trail (geometry) and the bike is easier (quicker) or less effort to steer against forces wanting to do unnatural acts to your front wheel’s traction and chassis. - To easily tighten lines (at a higher speed) into turns without excessive force on the bars.... means you can come in faster and hotter without losing traction due to big bar input to keep the turn going. – if your bike wants to stand up before reaching the apex^ and you now fight to keep it down – what does that mean?

Entering T9 is a good example of high speed tightening the line using chassis geometry rather then brute strength on the bars-never a good thing.

^Apex as defined by me: the point in a corner where YOU stop turning in and start turning out.(turning out point is now all about throttle up/rear wheel steering/ /weight outside peg/ increasing the trail/…… to sloooow up steering….(the turn is opening) dirt bike riders know this all to well…
www.graham@everylap.com

[a13x]

Hey that's me bolt upright on KTM 59.... Into T3.

You mean in the pic I posted? That's Travis Beaudoin #59 on his CRF. Am I losing my mind? =]

[OreoGaborio]

Whoever it is, it looks like they're still on the gas

Respectfully yours,

- Pete "I knew a13x before he was big" Gaboriault

[butcher bergs]

(not because I have intimate knowledge of the photos in my collection which illustrate the point I was trying to make)

Exactly.

[a13x]

Whoever it is, it looks like they're still on the gas

I think he just got OFF the brake and his front suspension uncompressed before turn-in. I was passing him there and he started braking before I did (hence how I made pass).

[xsiliconkid]

You mean in the pic I posted? That's Travis Beaudoin #59 on his CRF. Am I losing my mind? =]

oh yeah.... thought it was a couple of years back...I'm losing my mind....
same bike, same leathers..... but your right...it can't be me......my numbers 58....
Graham

[OreoGaborio]

[bdawkins20]

Great Thread! I have a question for all you experts and amatuers.... how the hell do you guys downshift while leaned over in turn 1,6, and 11? I am trail braking in all these turns but for the life of me I can't bring myself to downshift while leaned over in the turn. For Example- I preturn for 1 and am braking while up and down and trail braking but I feel like I can't downshift at any point. This absolutely kills my lap times as I have no drive coming out of said corners and watch the pack pull away... A slipper clutch just isn't in the cards.
I believe I am in 4th gear for turn 1..... Are you guys doing all your gear shifts while up and down while braking? I assume so. obviously there is something very wrong with my technique of blipping and shifting beacause i have almost washed out while deftly trying to let out the clutch.

turn 6 I get the same feeling....while going down the hill and setting my speed I just think to myself I can really only do one downshift. during the drive out of the corner I am wishing I was in a lower gear as I will have throttle pinned and I will be bogging out of the corner. Any Ideas? Is my clutch screwd up? not adjusted properly? Do I not have the revs matched for the gear? bike is 02 sv....

[RyanNicholson]

I'm in 5th at the end of the straight (for what seems like a nano second) then downshifting twice going into T1 while on the brakes and most of that downshifting is done straight up and down. I've never raced with a slipper either so I feel your pain.

Your timing may be off when you blip the throttle/shift/clutch while braking. Its a tough thing to get used to but just keep practicing. Instead of thinking of it as clutch>shift>blip>clutch think of it as one smooth quick motion. And I don't know about the SV, but I know with an I4 I never really worry about banging down a gear and dealing with the high revs... as you're slowing down on the brakes you kinda get a feel eventually for when to shift in the brake zone without hurting/upsetting your bike.

[OreoGaborio]

Yup... it's all one blended motion and the key is to use the slipper clutch that's between the palm of your hand and the lever

I use a minimal amount clutch, just enough to bring it into the friction zone, that way there's no initial "catch".
I'll also use a little throttle blip sometimes to relieve any tension that's left in the transmission and get the revs close to where they'll be.
At the same time click it down into the next gear and immedately begin modulating the clutch as necessary, almost as if I were starting from a stop, to smooth it all out.

All of that happens almost simultaneously.

I find that the trickiest downshift is the one going into 11, where I'm already leaned over slightly to the left by the time I even reach my brake marker.

Note his downshift at the :40 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOax2ftgbNU

And in this one, put your mouse on the tip of the clutch lever when the lever is all the way engaged and leave it there (not when the rider's fingers aren't on it though... put your cursor on it at the :30 mark). This will emphasize how long he's in the friction zone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qkRiytX5lQ

[CEO]

Great Thread! I have a question for all you experts and amatuers.... how the hell do you guys downshift while leaned over in turn 1,6, and 11?

The only place on the track where you should have to downshift while leaned over significantly is in T11...

[Chippertheripper]

this thread gives me quite the chub to get back on the track. is it april yet?

[Paul_E_D]

I dunno, I'm leaned a bit in the preturn zone for T1 while taking 2 downshifts. And I'm certainly leaned a little into 6, and a lot in 11. The key is to hold off your shifts until later in the braking zone so that you speed matches your gear better.

Some will hold the clutch in until nearly the tip in point, and feed it out even as the bike starts lean, fully releasing by max lean angle. I actually find clutchless downshifts smoother, so timing is more imporant. Without a slipper you can't just bang multiple gears, you have to apply brakes wait, shift, wait shift, release brakes.

It all happens fast, but timing is everything. Start at a comfy speed and practice, feeling how the bike reacts, and add speed back in gradually.

[OreoGaborio]

Yeah I experimented a with clutchless downshifting on the EX quite a bit from the end of 06 to the beginning of 08. When I got it right, it was remarkably smooth.

But I found that I couldn't be consistently smooth both with the downshift itself and my brake pressure, since I had to use a little bit of a throttle blip to get right.

Eventually I went back to using the clutch because of the reasons above... I couldn't brake the way I wanted to and the rear tire kept stepping out on the entry to T11 when I didn't get it right... which was often enough.

[RyanNicholson]

yea clutchless downshifts were never really my thing either, mind you I don't use the clutch a lot but pulling it in just enough to smooth the whole process out makes a difference for me.

BTW friends you ride with will get annoyed as shit but this is definitely something you can practice on the street as well. I don't recommend late braking a stop sign, but if you brake a bit late for a stop and practice downshifting this way you'll get it down easy peasy

[obsolete]

since I had to use a little bit of a throttle blip to get right.

Do you not blip the throttle when you use the clutch to down shift?

[OreoGaborio]

not always, no.

[obsolete]

Do you engine brake?