Braking technique advice

[Ken C]

That would probably depend on what the "faster than usual corner speed" is.

The bigger question is "do you BELIEVE?"

The bike can USUALLY make a moderately over speed entry/corner. The rider has to overcome his inexperience (and lack of belief that he/she can make it).

[The Snowman]

The bigger question is "do you BELIEVE?"

With my current abilities, probably not. Not enough track experience. Although, I have come to trust my brakes and front wheel traction more with each day that I ride on the track.

[Ken C]

The greatest benefit from track days (besides the FUN) is learning the limits...

Legal Disclaimer: ...not so you can ride faster on the street, but to broaden skills to handle an overcooked corner or to brake to maximum effect while remaining in control.

[butcher bergs]

Pete, Ken,
Appreciate the responses. I still have a considerable amount of learning to do so every little bit helps.

The next question is "can the rider handle a faster than usual corner speed?"

Depends on whether or not the rider is willing to commit to and break thru new barriers while accepting whatever outcome the unknown has to offer once the barrier is broken.

[Paul_E_D]

Even on a 2 stroke, we are dependent on engine braking to shift weight to the front wheel as we enter the corner. fully coasting at 50/50 weight distribution I don't believe you can enter a turn (i.e. change directions) as fast as you can while engine/trail braking. There simply won't be enough traction out front and the bike will plow straight on, even while leaned over. I have done this several times.

[OreoGaborio]

The bigger question is "do you BELIEVE?"

There is no spoon.....

FYI, if you get a false neutral and decide to bail after your turn-in point, don't jack the bike upright mid-corner... I almost t-boned Brewmaster one race when he decided to bail & take the NASCAR oval after I had committed to an outside pass & I damn near plowed into him Almost dragged my RIGHT knee to avoid him. Good times!

Best option, depending on the circumstances of course, is to try stay on the racing line or ease your way off until you get it back into gear. Ya never know who's about to come around the outside, especially since you're now about to over-brake for the corner as you try & fight off the panic that's setting in.

[Crash Dummy Denno]

Even on a 2 stroke, we are dependent on engine braking to shift weight to the front wheel as we enter the corner. fully coasting at 50/50 weight distribution I don't believe you can enter a turn (i.e. change directions) as fast as you can while engine/trail braking. There simply won't be enough traction out front and the bike will plow straight on, even while leaned over. I have done this several times.

well what if you have a slipper clutch?

its my understanding that it slips by not engaging the motor so you are effectively in a 90% NEUTRAL until you roll back on the gas

[butcher bergs]

...

[TTD]

well what if you have a slipper clutch?

its my understanding that it slips by not engaging the motor so you are effectively in a 90% NEUTRAL until you roll back on the gas

just enough so the rear wheel doesn't skip.

I think most of them are designed so the excess speed of the rear wheel "drives" the plates apart. If the rear wheel is way faster than the motor, then it would approach a full disengagement of the clutch.

[Paul_E_D]

well what if you have a slipper clutch?

its my understanding that it slips by not engaging the motor so you are effectively in a 90% NEUTRAL until you roll back on the gas

Absolutely not. Like tony said they only slip enough to prevent a skipping rear tire. I think Ducati tested a system that was like you describe and the riders scrapped it immediately because it was unrideable at race pace.

[Kurlon]

Absolutely not. Like tony said they only slip enough to prevent a skipping rear tire. I think Ducati tested a system that was like you describe and the riders scrapped it immediately because it was unrideable at race pace.

Ducati and I think most of the others in MotoGP tried similar setups, automatic rev-matching, and yeah, universally panned by the riders.

On the slipper setups, all the good brands allow you to dial in exactly how much the clutch will slip in backtorque situations so a rider can adjust to their preferences.

[CEO]

well what if you have a slipper clutch?

its my understanding that it slips by not engaging the motor so you are effectively in a 90% NEUTRAL until you roll back on the gas

you and I have the same stock slipper in the r6... you MUST know that it does not do that.

[Crash Dummy Denno]

you and I have the same stock slipper in the r6... you MUST know that it does not do that.

i thought we were talking race pace here, was referring to my Katooom's STM slipper

the R6 stock slipper is barely a slipper IMO never had a slipper on the 636 either

[CEO]

i thought we were talking race pace here, was referring to my Katooom's STM slipper

the R6 stock slipper is barely a slipper IMO never had a slipper on the 636 either

Well yes the STM in my CRF does more than the stock one in the R6, but not as much as you're saying...

Try pulling in the clutch during hard braking and you'll feel less deceleration suddenly... unless you're braking hard enough to be floating the rear wheel, in which case you'd probably be doing 18's and not 23's

[Ken C]

Slipper clutches are generally as Tony described it. The mechanism has sometimes been referred to as a "ramp" where the clutch plates spread apart with a certain amount of back-torque. It still allows/causes engine braking to a lesser degree than no slipper clutch.

[xsiliconkid]

Slipper clutches are generally as Tony described it. The mechanism has sometimes been referred to as a "ramp" where the clutch plates spread apart with a certain amount of back-torque. It still allows/causes engine braking to a lesser degree than no slipper clutch.

yeah, the only time my slipper clutch has come in (on a Aprilia RSVR) is when I bone -headed two many down shifts...rear started jumping and then smoothed out - otherwise it has LOTS of engine braking...

On the earlier note of finding a false neutral coming into the turns.... it is also key to immediately remember (with everything going on ) to shift UP, to a higher gear (or stay with the clutch in until you are sorted back out) always assume it's a false neutral to an even lower gear...image what would happen if you banged it down to try and reselect the gear and you find an even lower gear now probably way leant over.

[Degsy]

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Back torque limiter doesn't equal slipper neccessarily. Depends on the system. I could be wrong but I thought the stock R6 system is not a true slipper in the balla nd ramp style or spring style.

[Degsy]

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I still maintain all slowing should be done with brakes applied (of course you are still using a percentage of engine braking naturally) and there should be little to no gap between brakes off and partial throttle.

[scottieducati]

You're either on the throttle or on the brakes... there should be very little in-between... the faster you get, the less "neutral" throttle you'll have.

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I still maintain all slowing should be done with brakes applied (of course you are still using a percentage of engine braking naturally) and there should be little to no gap between brakes off and partial throttle.

[Paul_E_D]

Ya, We're talking about engine braking while actually braking, although the salient moment is when you begin releasing the front brake with some amount of lean angle. If you're in neutral at this point, it is trouble.

Also, that general rule is broken in some corners depending on bike. T8/9 at Willow springs for example. On any type of lightweight bike. you just bang a downshift into 5th and throw it in. No actual brakes wanted/needed. Lack of engine braking here would send you out into the desert. The bike would simply not turn at that speed while coasting.

Now, let me tell you how exciting it is to seize a motor upon making that downshift!

[Kurlon]

Now, let me tell you how exciting it is to seize a motor upon making that downshift!

Uncle Creepy Old Guy... tell us a story!

[Ken C]

Ya, We're talking about engine braking while actually braking,

Yep. We are talking track riding here, where the goal is to be smooth and fast. So, use what ever amount of engine braking helps you, but you want to do it WHILE braking.

[Pittenger5]

Can someone explain blipping the throttle if its not already been discussed, havent read the whole thread yet?
I usually just stomp a downshift without touching the clutch, and I dont think I touch the throttle either. Just brake and downshift. Though Im braking well before I downshift, so maybe the engine speed is more matched to the next gear down? Is that how it works?

[OreoGaborio]

Are your downshifts choppy or smooth? Can you downshift while leaned over & not have the rear step out on you unpredictably?

[FirstDuc-1098]

have you seen Rickie ride?!?