CCS Rule Updates for 2008

[Doc]

EXCERPT From Rider Rep BJ Worsham

"The LRRS Rules Committee meets in February, and your 3 rider reps will be attending it. People who currently race in ULSB, or *would* race an SV in it -- SB, SS, stock, or whatever in between -- should send us their opinions

Mike Martire, gmdnyc@sbcglobal. net
Micky Curry, mickyc51@aol. com
B.J. Worsham. bjshredder@aol. com

As demonstrated over the last few years, LRRS is willing to try stuff out to improve things -- a motard class, the Sunday 1-practice schedule, the spec fuel, etc. -- and abandon or alter them as opinions or circumstances dictate. Voice your opinion, and if it's supported by enough people, you may just get what you want.

DON'T FORGET ... include your name, rider #, license tier, (Nov/Am/Ex) and anything thing else relevant, like... "I'm making a huge deal about this, but really only plan to race 2 events next season," or ..."I'd like to race my xyz-bike in ULSB more, but it's tough to stay around until race 7 or 8 on Sunday."

[smf]

here's hoping every ULSB racer emails them... I just send my thoughts to each of them

[a13x]

Alex, where do I have to fly to demo that 848? I'm hoping I don't hate it like the other ducs I've riden. For some reason I'm real interested in seeing what it's got for the track. (I do have to find something to race after I NEU stops taking all my money)

Ducati

Some dealers will have them to demo...

[SVRACER01]

you guys are all acting like they base the rules on LRRS. while there may be say...12 hawks that race at NHMS there are probably 12 total being raced across the country. its a 20 year old bike......how much longer are you going to race it and expect it to be competitive?
again..its evolution. as new bikes are made the old ones get phased back. if it werent for the PT class the EXs would have no where to race. if you are doing this fun then why would you care what you are racing against? the same people that you raced close with last year will still be racing in the same place...who cares if its for 9th or 19th?

look at the rules... there are alot of "unfair" things in ULSB or any class for that matter

[Doc]

Wow Oxx... Ok so you stay in LWSB with your Bad self, your bike will be legal for it.

Who cares where you place?

[SVRACER01]

lets take a look

ULTRA-LIGHTWEIGHT SUPERBIKE (Novice Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, unlimited displacement, unlimited frame = homemade 900+cc roadbike -HP=?? Duke 2 -HP= 55 or motard- HP=55+

Two stroke, liquid cooled, up to 315cc= punched out 250-HP=??

Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement = ????

Twin cylinder, air cooled, non-desmodromic valves up to 900cc= Duc 1000ss(whose gonna check?)-HP=??

Twin cylinder, air cooled, desmodromic valves, up to 805cc = Duc 800? or with new rules the 848-HP=??

Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1999 model year, up to 700cc= hawk (obviously)-HP=50+

Three cylinder, non-fuel injected, up to 900cc= pre 97 speed 3- HP=98!!

Four cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1987 model year, up to 570cc= ??

Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1987 to 1992 model year, up to 500ccFZR4-HP=60+, bandit4- HP probably about the same but these bikes can be punched out to 500cc

Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 750cc= IDK...XJ750??

Harley-Davidson Sportsters of unlimited displacement= while no one is scared of them im sure if you built one to flat track capacity with a stock twin cam motor they are 1400cc and about 75+HP




unfortunatly if you look at results for this class across the country, entries are few and the are mostly motards with a few 2 strokes thrown in. CCS is probably trying to up the amount of entries and diversity in this class since it is turning into a motard class. while we have a more diverse class( with the hawks and a few FZRs and the motards) the rest of the country doesnt and CCSs rules arent based on us solely.

along with you complaints you should be offering solutions like hawks allowed in LWSM and PT. especially since the FZRs are allowed in LWSM as well. and/or post 99 twin cyl bikes must be 650cc. dont just be a complainer...have some solutions.

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

you guys are all acting like they base the rules on LRRS. while there may be say...12 hawks that race at NHMS there are probably 12 total being raced across the country. its a 20 year old bike......how much longer are you going to race it and expect it to be competitive?
again..its evolution. as new bikes are made the old ones get phased back. if it werent for the PT class the EXs would have no where to race. if you are doing this fun then why would you care what you are racing against? the same people that you raced close with last year will still be racing in the same place...who cares if its for 9th or 19th?

look at the rules... there are alot of "unfair" things in ULSB or any class for that matter

Point Well Made. looking at the CCS Forums really no-one is in favor of these changes (that I have read) or in favor enough to post there postive feelings on the change. We have written our letters we have Voiced our claims. If the rule changes we won't like it. But speaking for myself I will still race My hawk as long as I can. maybe get something more competitive(250 GP) for another class but I will still race the hawk one way or another.

[SVRACER01]

Wow Oxx... Ok so you stay in LWSB with your Bad self, your bike will be legal for it.

Who cares where you place?

ive already known that i will be mid pack in my classes. the SVs in the 14s arent 650cc.

what do you really care anyway Doc? 12th or 19th...last is last

[SVRACER01]

im contemplating an old speed 3 just so i can DOMINATE!

[Doc]

unfortunatly if you look at results for this class across the country, entries are few and the are mostly motards with a few 2 strokes thrown in. CCS is probably trying to up the amount of entries and diversity in this class since it is turning into a motard class. while we have a more diverse class( with the hawks and a few FZRs and the motards) the rest of the country doesnt and CCSs rules arent based on us solely.

along with you complaints you should be offering solutions like hawks allowed in LWSM and PT. especially since the FZRs are allowed in LWSM as well. and/or post 99 twin cyl bikes must be 650cc. dont just be a complainer...have some solutions.

From a friend on another forum.

"This is somewhat untrue. We very very rarely, if ever have motards enter ULWSB. There was one, at one race, and I knew another guy who was going to but didn't. Here in the Midwest region, it's actually a pretty diverse class, though very very small. Bikes entered last season:

DUC 750 GARY PALMER, BYRON, IL.
DUC 750 BARNEY WRIGHT, ROCKFORD, IL.
DUC 750 LON ALLEN, CLINTONVILLE, WI.
DUC 800 LON ALLEN JR, CLINTONVILLE, WI.
DUC 750 DAVID DICKERSON, BELOIT, WI.
DUC 750 JOSH ENGELHARDT, CLINTONVILLE, WI.
DUC 620 JEREMY WOMACK, MINNEAPOLIS, MN.
HON 700 TIM HALEY, CHICAGO, IL.
HON 650 JENNIFER MUECKE, MILWAUKEE, WI.
MZ 720 WILLIAM MILLIER, MORAVIA, NY.
MZ 660 ROSS BENSON, PROSPECT HGTS, IL.
SUZ 500 JOHN A CARLSON, DELAVAN, WI.
YAM 600 MARK BURNS, OSHKOSH, WI.
YAM 600 GREG WILLIAMS, KANSAS CITY, MO.
YAM 400 TAD GRALEWSKI, ELGIN, IL.
YAM 400 MICHAEL GANTZ, ROCKFORD, IL.
KTM 450 STEVE KENNEDY, CHESAPEAKE, VA.

This list doesn't include two guys that ran in '06, one on a Hawk who was thinking about doing a couple ULWSB till he got hurt, and a friend with an FZR 400 who sat out last season because he's trying to save up for a house.

Looking at other regions: (This isn't complete, but a pretty good sampling)

FL:
HON 250 RAUL GARCIA, MIAMI, FL.
HON 400 DAVE GABERT, PORT ST LUCIE, FL.
HON 450 DAVID GAVIRIA, DAVIE, FL.
HON 450 TRAVIS PEPIN, MELBOURNE, FL.
HON 450 EDUARDO R. TORRES, MIAMI, FL.
HON 450 MARCIO SILVA, POMPANO, FL.
HON 450 CESAR RESTREPO, JACKSONVILLE, FL.
YAM 450 SANTIAGO VILLA, SUNRISE, FL.
YAM 400 CHAD A TENN, GAINSVILLE, FL.
YAM 400 TROY TENN, GAINESVILLE, FL.
YAM 400 JOHN RIOPKO, MATTHEWS, NC.
YAM 426 JEREMY WHITE, TULSA, OK.
KTM 560 CARLOS MIRANDA, CAROL CITY, FL. SELF
KTM 525 PATRICK ERICKSON, PEMBROKE PINES, FL.
KTM 525 TIMOTHY RARICK, PLANTATION, FL.
SUZ 400 ANDRES OVALLE, MIAMI, FL.
KAW 500 JACK WHITE, NAPLES, FL.
DRZ 400 JOSE I HENAO, MIAMI BEACH, FL.
APR 250 FERNANDO D FERREYRA, MIAMI, FL.
APR 250 CHESTER HAMBLIN, TAMPA, FL.
APR 250 RAMON VAZQUEZ JR, PALM BEACH GARDENS, FL.
HUS 650 ANTONIO DIAZ JR, MIAMI, FL.
DUC 800 BARRY ROBINSON, MIAMI, FL.
DUC 750 ELIE KATZ, BROOKLY, NY.
MZ 660 WILLIAM K. PHILLIPS, FT LAUDERDALE, FL.
MZ 660 PETER LAGA, JASPER, FL.


SW:
KTM 560 SHAWN HEATH, GLENDALE, AZ.
KTM 525 MATTHEW HITCHON, QUEEN CREEK, AZ.
SUZ 400 SAMUEL WEBER, CASA GRANDE, AZ.
HON 450 JAMIE BUBECK, GILBERT, AZ.
TZR 250 JEAN-PAUL OTTO, PATAGONIA, AZ.


MA/SE:
YAM 400 SCOTT EDWARDS, CATAWBA, NC.
YAM 400 JOHN RIOPKO, MATTHEWS, NC.
YAM 400 MARK EVRY, SILVER SPRING, MD.
YAM 400 ALEXANDER SHAW, HACKETTSTOWN, NJ.
YAM 400 RONALD W. SHAW JR., INDEPENDENCE, NJ.
HON 650 MICHAEL ZIRK, INWOOD, WV.
APR 250 ANDRE ESSER, TAKOMA PARK, MD.
KTM 525 ANDRE ESSER, TAKOMA PARK, MD.
KTM 450 STEVE KENNEDY, CHESAPEAKE, VA.
KTM 450 JEREMY TURNER, BRANCHVILLE, NJ.
DUC 800 SEAN MARSTON, FOREST HILL, MD.
DUC 800 BILLY SURBER, NORFOLK, VA.
DUC 750 SHIGERU HONDA, ALEXANDRIA, VA.
DUC 750 ROBERT GLITTONE, WARRENTON, VA. "

[Doc]

ive already known that i will be mid pack in my classes. the SVs in the 14s arent 650cc.

what do you really care anyway Doc? 12th or 19th...last is last

Dude I race a Duc 800 and the bike can stay with the SV's (the rider needs some work)

I doubt you will be mid pack in ULSB.

Doesn't matter, LRRS is the exception not the rule but as has been said I haven't heard anything positive about this on the CCS forum or even NEAR.

[nt650hawk]

Bring it on.

I'll just race LWSS and I don't want to hear any complaints that my 20 year old bike kick your ass (Yea Right)

It about the rider any way.

Let the little man have his fight.

[Doc]

Your Hawk is NOT legal for LWSS. I am sure you know this.... I have a stock front that you can throw on there though... then you should be good.

I am thinking of Building a LWSS legal Hawk.

[Doc]

I just had a thought.... As Oxx has said... in many areas of the country ULSB has just become a motard class anyway.

Maybe CCS is trying to push motards out of ULSB by brining SV's in?

I still think that the bikes giving the SV's fits (at track other than Loudon) Should have to move up to MWSB. There are less of them to be affected.

[nt650hawk]

Your Hawk is NOT legal for LWSS. I am sure you know this.... I have a stock front that you can throw on there though... then you should be good.

I am thinking of Building a LWSS legal Hawk.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

What is the diference if I put on a 2000 stock Honda front end compaired to a 2007 SV front end while my built engine puts out the the same HP as a SV. I meet every aspect of a modern day street SV.

[smf]

Bring it on.

I'll just race LWSS and I don't want to hear any complaints that my 20 year old bike kick your ass (Yea Right)

It about the rider any way.

Let the little man have his fight.

with Gino on this one. if the rules change I'm running LWSS since a stock SV still has more/better technology than my Hawk (how do you like those floating front rotors or modern forks? wish I had them)

man. it would be funny as hell if a hawk won the LWSS AM Achievement award next season

[smf]

I am thinking of Building a LWSS legal Hawk.

as an amateur this is a complete waste of your time and money (even more of a waste racing normally is )

[Doc]

as an amateur this is a complete waste of your time and money (even more of a waste racing normally is )

Racing is not a waste! Blasphemy!

[Pittenger5]

Just stay out of my PTwins. Otherwise, enter whatever you like, Im easy

[Doc]

Ptwins is next! Fight the power!

[Doc]

I just got this from Eric.

"From the emails I have received there is some question as to the thoughts behind changes and what the exact wording of the rules will be. This is a generic response encompassing all the questions that were asked about various rules changes, if by accident I did not address your particular concern it was not that I meant to overlook it or ignore I simply believed I had addressed it when I was putting together this response. If you have further comments please get them to me as soon as possible as we want to make this final quickly and have delayed the Nov Newsletter and hope to have all of this addressed when that mailing goes out. Depending on circumstances we may elect to get mailing out quicker than the final resolution to some of these class changes.



Sorry to have been so brief in the original outline of rules committees outcomes in regard to why some things have been allowed/disallowed and what the actual rule wording would be. Most of the exact rule wording has not been determined but obviously there has been some confusion on displacement limits between classes as I did not list what those would be.

In Ultra-Lightweight SuperBike the displacement limit for a 4 valve water cooled twin would be 650cc (not 700, 750 or 800 cc) Lightweight SuperSport, Grand Prix and SB would have its limit raised to 800cc for a water cooled non-desmo twin.



All of the rule changes were looked at strictly from a fairness aspect, my part of this business is strictly the on-track activities and insuring everyone is treated equal and classes are balanced. The rules’ committees fall under this same instruction. While the income obviously plays a part in the continued existence of CCS fair classes and rules are the issue at hand. The rules are fairly static and we try to keep it that way, as new bikes come out that are of the sporting racing type we do try to evaluate what is happening to the classes that they fit into under the current rules and if that seems appropriate to class structure. CCS racing is about current model racing, not vintage or classic, on one hand that would be a lot easier in determining where bikes fit as they have a past history to work form on the other hand vintage racing is a stagnant form of racing while very cool and has its place there are no new innovations for the class.



Which leads us to the notes I have from recommendation to make a shift in allowing the water cooled 650cc twins into Ultra-Lightweight. The current crop of large displacement air cooled twins that were already legal in Lightweight have come up in power and resulted in many comments from the smaller water cooled bike riders that those machines do not belong there. When results were inspected the air cooled large bore twins showed a huge disparity in the overall finish over the once dominant 650 water cooled twin when raced head to head. This has been a gradual shift over the last few years and is not indicative of any one region but the country as a whole as some tracks have not seen the influx of the A/C bikes or they are still in development whereas there are several riders that have multi year development into water cooled machines.



Simple directive was to see if there was an error in race classes or where the lightweight lines are and should they be redrawn. The top level LW bikes were determined to not be close to MW machines, meaning you couldn’t move the larger A/C machines up, so the other aspect evaluated was moving some of the lower HP bikes to the next lower class. Spec sheets were inspected for the top hp/ lightest weight bikes in the Ultra-Light class and it showed that there were multiple machines that made more hp than bikes that were excluded from the class ie liquid cooled 4 valve 650 twins. A comparison of lap times of ULSB and LSS was showing a disparity in that ULSB lap times were faster than LSS, this for a class that has theoretically slower machines. Next step was that that there were no current production sport bikes made that fit ultra-lightweight found and the hp numbers of the current production models that are raced. (IE Motard have near similar power output and much lower weight, but generally have a top speed limit due to gearing availability.) So weight-top speed was considered a push at worst, as the design of machines towards factory produced SuperMoto machines will see the street gearing needed installed in these machines in the very near future.

At this point I do not see time to have rules committee reconvene but I personally will take and do reviews of hard evidence that reflects why this should be reexamined, that based on notes was pretty thoroughly examined, should be changed, reversed, delayed, or other action taken.



800cc water cooled non-desmo twin in Lightweight and ThunderBike classes. We do not feel that this machine is out of line or performance with the other machines’ capabilities in these fields. This is not an overdog or an underdog and should fit neatly in the middle of this very diverse race environment.



125GP The 250 4 stroke was allowed as that is the direction that other 125GP racing is headed both on a national and international level with these similar output motors in purpose built frames. Currently we are not going to require the purpose built frame in order to compete in the 125GP class but may be changed to a purpose built or street based frame in the future.



The sparking knee/toe sliders were asked to be allowed to provide more excitement for the spectators. The distraction for both safety workers and riders behind was judged to be too significant to justify the spectator aspect.



onclick="modify_msg('160427', '13999c62b3c78a62fc8f990682919c2f')" v:shapes="modify_button_160427">Upon review of requests for changes to grid procedure, one theme stood out, that griding by points was rewarding the loyal customer. The flaw with that is if your loyal customer finishes say 15th in 7 races, he scores 70 points, while a “contingency hunter” only races and wins twice has the same 70 points, who deserves to rewarded? The loyal customer or the contingency hunter? Grids by order of entry gives all riders the opportunity to start towards the front.



Also in response to the request to grid by points, a comparison was made to other organizations that do grid by points and everywhere there was head to head competition within that geographical area entry date was preferred, by 45% more entries for entry date to points. Now granted there are differences other than just griding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than other organizations in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US road racing.



Other common comment was regarding safety because the “faster” riders may have to start in the back. Excuse me while I toss this out for your consideration, now we need everyone to bring their time slip from the drag strip indicating their reaction time and we grid that way or 60 foot times or ¼ mile times? Absurd, yes, this is not bracket racing, but this would be the only way to accurately judge how quick someone is going to start a race to make it safer. Since all riders start at a dead stop and are on similar machines, the number of points scored are irrelevant to safety.



So then we looked at other options, heat races or qualifying, which would require the reduction of race classes by 1/2 and a double entry fees for the same amount of race time, the increase in entry fees nixed this one. (Mainly because comments from riders about increased fees associated with this for tires and the rush to front in limited time.)



Now granted there are differences other than just gridding methods that may be reason that CCS sees more entries than competition in these areas of head to head competition such as classes, rules enforcement, officials, racers, tracks, pricing, etc but it is just another element that we do different that adds up to the whole package that makes CCS the leader in US roadracing.



All recommendations were reviewed by the respective committee or official that was/is empowered with that function."


Eric Kelcher
Director of Competition
Championship Cup Series
American Sportbike Racing Association
(817) 246-1127
(817)246-2977 fax

[Pittenger5]

Ok, someone wanna translate that into english for me?

[Doc]

Umm sure.

"In Ultra-Lightweight SuperBike the displacement limit for a 4 valve water cooled twin (SV) would be 650cc.
Lightweight SuperSport, Grand Prix and SB would have its limit raised to 800cc for a water cooled non-desmo twin."

"CCS racing is about current model racing, not vintage or classic"

The current crop of large displacement air cooled twins (LDACT's) that are legal in LWSB have come up in power and resulted in many comments from the smaller water cooled bike riders (SV's) that the LDACT's do not belong there.
When results were inspected the LDACT's showed a huge disparity in the overall finish placings over the once dominant SV's when raced head to head. This has been a gradual shift over the last few years and is not indicative of any one region but the country as a whole as some tracks have not seen the influx of the LDACT bikes or they are still in development whereas there are several riders that have multi year development into water cooled (SV) machines.

The top level LDACT's in LWSB were determined to not be close to MWSB machines, meaning you can't move them up into MWSB.

The thing to do is move the SV's to the next lower class. Spec sheets were inspected and there are some bikes in ULSB that make more HP that the SV650's



In a nutshell....
SV650's are in ULSB.... (displacement limit of 650cc) SV riders get one more race they can enter. (cause you know they will still do well in LWSB at NHMS) ... Gridding remains the same... Hawks and all the other old tech are SCREWED. And no you can't have the sparking toe/knee sliders!

CCS is all about racing CURRENT Tech.

[Pittenger5]

Gotcha. Sucks.

[SVRACER01]

OK. well keeping the SVs at 650 was a suggestion i made to keep the playing field "level". so if LRRS decides to follow suit then you guys should rally for LWSM and/or PT.