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Cornering Technique...

  1. #1
    Lifer BSR6's Avatar
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    Cornering Technique...

    The following was posted by Tabby in the "Strange Tire Grip Fact" post and got me thinking. Instead of taking the thread off topic I thought I would start a new one. See the below quote from Tabby about what is happening when you countersteer the bike into a corner...

    "No! the front tire is NOT sliding during a countersteer input. It is as Stromper noted. After the desired angle is reached, countersteer pressure at the handlebar is decreased or ceased. Then the bike is in a steady state of cornering, that is dependent on the loading of the tires/chassis that the rider wishes to maintain. Yes, some bikes, because of the way they are designed, may need a certain amount of handlebar pressure to maintain a given cornering arc, that doesn't mean they are in a constant cornersteer mode.
    I am talking about pavement riding, and not dirt riding. The videos that we used to show as part of the previous MSF curriculum, used to show that process quite clearly. Once the "CS" input ceased levering the tire out from under the bike, the tire returned to what might be called a camber steer position with the appropriate steering head angle needed to maintain the desired arc."


    As far as cornering and countesteering goes, I am a rookie who has done a handfull of track days, and only riding in B group with Fishtail, so if this sounds a little dumb bare with me.

    As you already know...One of the first things I noticed as I learned to corner was the most important thing is looking in the right places. I do this by getting the correct body position, then sticking my head/neck out and focusing on certain points further out (where I want to be not where I am) as I am leaning and rounding the turn. What happens when I do this is everything naturally falls into place and the bike goes just where I want it to. The problem is I have noticed that one of the natural things I do is after I counter steer and once I am in the turn, I either almost completely let go of the bars (Not really letting go but you know what I mean) or sometimes even feel my self pulling on the inside ever so slightly and steering into the turn. Its strange cause its all subconcious and seems to happen naturally as I go through the turn since my body wants to go where my head and eyes are pointing. Is steering back into the turn slightly a bad input that will come back to haunt me later?

    It feels really good and the bike seems to handle as it if its reading my mind, but is this the type of input they are trying to teach us to avoid when we are told to be as gentle as possible with the bars? The instructors seem to be constantly reminding us of that and I am thinking its because we have a natural tendancy to do what I am describing but not supposed to. Does anyone else notice they do this? Maybe I am doing something else wrong and this is happening to compensate for it?

    I could be thinking too much but I like to be aware of what I am doing so I can spot bad habits before they develop. In everything I do, learning proper technique right from the beginning usually helps big time in the long run. Any input from the more experienced guys would be greatly appreciated.

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  2. #2
    Lifer RyanNicholson's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    IMHO as long as its after the apex of the corner consciously steering into the corner can actually be considered a good thing, for track riding anyway. Naturally it'll stand the bike back up so thats just the realistic part of it... but I know I've worked on exiting a corner standing the bike up as aggressively as possible to get back on the gas harder and sooner.

    Theoretically you should be able to take your hands off the bars at the apex... learning to go around a corner with your fingers controlling the bars lightly forces it and keeps you from using too much input. Once your in the corner and your lean angle is where you need it to be I agree with Tabby that the bike will hold its arc and no more bar input is needed. Exiting a corner you're steering into it to stand the bike up whether you're conscious of it or not, while weighting the pegs as needed.

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  3. #3
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Pulling the inside grip will stand the bike up as Ryan notes. This can be good if it is to allow more throttle, but it is possible that you are doing it because your corner speed is too low for you lean angle. In otherwords, instead of rolling on more throttle to maintain your angle of lean and arc, you are steering against the turn to maintain your arc.

    If you are doing the latter, then I'd say it is a bad habit that will bite you later. If what you're talking about is after the apex pushing the bike up for earliest possible WOT, then good job.

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  4. #4
    Lifer BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Hmm as I consider where in the turn this is occuring I am realizing something. It seems as though it might be right around the apex, possibly even before. I guess the best way to describe it is I almost feel as if this tendancy to steer in, is to keep the bike on the line. Also, I am realizing it seems to really only happen in turn 1. The rest of the track for the most part I am pretty much off the bars after the initial counter steer. Its not because I am running wide at the apex and correcting for it. Between following the instructors, and them telling me I am right on in my approach to turn 1 when they follow me, I am confident I got the line down.

    This is how it feels...If I stopped myself from doing it, I would run slightly wide in 1, missing the apex and end up towards the inside of 1a. Keep in mind these are slight differences in lines, and the input is only slight. The main issue is how it feels. When I stop doing it I feel like the bike and I are in disagreement. It wants to do one thing, while I want to do another, and I lose all my rythym from turn 1 all the way through 2. The problem is I don't know if I am doing it before, at, or after the apex. Either way its occuring very close to the apex.

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  5. #5
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    I try to make only one noticeable steering input at turn in, then get on the gas to "hook" the bike into the turn. It sounds to me like the missing ingredient for you is throttle. Most people are trailing throttle through T1, which is not ideal for the bike, or for your momentum. Try the old One Two approach, which is a quick countersteer to your full lean, followed by immediate application of throttle. Start easy on the gas, but experiment with a little more at a time.

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  6. #6
    Lifer RyanNicholson's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    what kind of bike are we talkin about?

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  7. #7
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Chopper.

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  8. #8
    Lifer BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Its an '04 R6. As a rookie I am trying to focus on one thing at a time. So far its been line, body postion, etc, so I have just been holding neutral throttle into the turns. Maybe its time I start learning the throttle a little. I always thought rolling at a constant speed through the turns was a good technique cause throttle or brake would load up the tires more.

    I had two days in the rain last year, and I mean pouring rain. I really learned how bad inputs effect the bike in the corners (this was before the turn in issue arose) and any throttle in the turns was scary. You would immediately feel the tires start slipping here and there throughout the turn. I was actually able to corner a little faster with even throttle and get a nice consistant feel throughout each turn so I assumed that was the best technique in the dry as well.

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  9. #9
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Just make sure you're never off throttle in the corners. Either on the brakes, or on the gas (slightly)... on your way into a corner, you want to be on the brakes to help the bike steer (shortens the forks), on the way out you want to be on the gas nice and progressively. Soft hands!

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  10. #10
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Neutral throttle is better than no throttle, but positive throttle is really what's required. This is tough to really diagnose because I have never followed you through there, but I'm willing to bet you aren't reaching even neutral throttle til after the curbing there in T1.

    This new turn is tricky because of that over-sized curb. I find that the turn in has to be a little bit later than you expect it to be because an early turn in will risk bouncing you off that big curb and prevents you from getting on the gas. So it's a tight approach, but late turn in in my book.

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  11. #11
    Lifer BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    OK so this is what I am thinking...a light nudge of the bars to countersteer into the turn. Just as the bike settles into the lean/turn give it a very slight crack of the throttle to create a slightly positive level of acceleration to hook into the corner. If properly executed I should be able to get through turn 1 without that subtle turn in?

    Maybe I will try this in all turns, it sounds like you are saying this crack of the throttle is a necessary part of every corner. Is the purpose to set the suspension? Or to increase the load on the tires and generate that scrub that gets them nice and sticky?

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  12. #12
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Try it. It shifts the weight a little towards the rear and allows the front tire to track a much tighter arc at higher speeds. It feels amazing, like the bike is rotating around your apex and allowing very early drive out. There are very few turns where this technique isn't appropriate.

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  13. #13
    Lifer RyanNicholson's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    or sometimes even feel my self pulling on the inside ever so slightly and steering into the turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    This is how it feels...If I stopped myself from doing it, I would run slightly wide in 1, missing the apex and end up towards the inside of 1a.
    I think this is where I got a little confused. Steering into the corner at or before the apex would run you wider by standing up the bike, but you described it feeling as though you'd run wide if you didn't do it.

    Like Paul said its kind of hard to figure out without seeing you ride, but I'd be willing to bet that he was right in his first post... that possibly you don't have quite enough corner speed so you widen your arc to correct for it and avoid bouncing off the curb (or maybe subconscious fear of hitting it?).

    As far as the throttle/brake things go typically when you brake it'll squat the suspension making it easy to turn in, hold your brake to the apex(ish) trailing it off as you roll on the throttle past the apex and out of the corner. This keeps the suspension squated throughout the process (brake squating front > corner squating both > throttle squating rear) and lets the bike transition from each of those smoothly and keeps the chassis happy.

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  14. #14
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    I can only offer some small tidbits. When a bike is heeled over, it will slow down faster being on the side of the tire, than it will when it is straight up and down. Along with a balanced load/feel to the bike, neutral to positive throttle mid corner, overcomes that tendency. How much positive throttle is kind of a big question. I'd guess that would depend on your skill level, balanced against your aggression level, balanced against the equipment you are using. Regardless, it does work.

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  15. #15
    thrilled brady's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    ...a quick countersteer to your full lean, followed by immediate application of throttle.
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanNicholson View Post
    ...hold your brake to the apex(ish) trailing it off as you roll on the throttle past the apex and out of the corner.
    These two styles seem contradictory, considering the turn starts at countersteer/tip-in, and is half-over by the apex. Would you guys explain further? Is it a case of more corner speed desired for the lighter (Paul's) bike vs. harder/later braking on the 600?

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  16. #16
    Lifer RyanNicholson's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Quote Originally Posted by brady View Post
    These two styles seem contradictory, considering the turn starts at countersteer/tip-in, and is half-over by the apex. Would you guys explain further? Is it a case of more corner speed desired for the lighter (Paul's) bike vs. harder/later braking on the 600?
    It's entirely possible thats why they seem different. LWGP people are just, well... weird

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  17. #17
    Lifer Ken C's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    There are a lot of variables to consider to fully answer your question.

    Throttle timing is an important one, but you must also consider the geometry of the bike and tire profile. A motorcycle has some seemingly contrary aspects to its design. One is that once the bike is leaned, the front end naturally wants to fall into the turn, which should stand the bike up, but often doesn't. Experiment in the garage by leaning the bike one way or the other (have a spotter help you) and notice that the front wheel falls to the side that you are leaning.

    But, much of this is overcome by the gyroscopic forces when the bike is moving. Even so, it is there. Your bike is setup in a way that encourages this behavior. You sometimes hear racers say that they are fighting the bike mid-corner. A change of ride height or a different tire may correct that problem (sometimes creating a new problem).

    The NJ track has a long, tight left hander that seems to go on forever. I sometimes find myself turning into the curve to maintain my line, but a slightly more aggressive body lean will often make this unnecessary.

    It is something you want to minimize. The idea is to achieve neutral and light-to-no pressure on the handlebars after turn-in. In the rain this is even more important.

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    Last edited by Ken C; 04-05-10 at 09:31 AM.

  18. #18
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Quote Originally Posted by brady View Post
    These two styles seem contradictory, considering the turn starts at countersteer/tip-in, and is half-over by the apex. Would you guys explain further? Is it a case of more corner speed desired for the lighter (Paul's) bike vs. harder/later braking on the 600?
    They are not necessarily opposed. Some turns (T1) have and extened pre-turn area where you may trail brake and be slightly leaned for a while, but there is a moment when you need to really get the bike leaned fully and get on with it. That point is before the apex.

    T3 is another good example. I trail brake AND tip it in incredibly fast. Off the brakes by the rumble strip back on the gas by the patch. The actual apex of 3 is past the patch.

    People make WAAAY too much of the distinction between lightweight bike technique and middleweight/heavyweight. The differences are smaller than you may think. I pitted with Shane and we shared technique/line info.

    Edit: My point is trail braking does not equal lazy turn in. Also that I doubt anyone actually brakes to the apex very often.

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    Last edited by Paul_E_D; 04-05-10 at 10:01 AM.
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  19. #19
    thrilled brady's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    ...
    T3 is another good example. I trail brake AND tip it in incredibly fast...
    ...My point is trail braking does not equal lazy turn in.
    I'm assuming you're mostly off the brakes by the time you tip in? Does the quick tip in also help keep the front end planted/compressed as you release the brakes?
    A quick tip in while trail braking has always seemed like asking for trouble, but I'll try to take your word for it next time I'm there.

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  20. #20
    Lifer Ken C's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Yes, most of your braking is done. You are at perhaps 20-40% braking at turn-in depending on your level of skill/aggression and trailing completely off the brakes at the apex or so.

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  21. #21
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    I hate to even mention this, but I have tipped it into T3 aggressively at maximum braking. You need to be off the brakes before you hit the crack in the pavement, but otherwise what you can do with trail braking on a GP bike is otherworldly. I remember one race where I was in too hot on lap one in heavy traffic and I had the rear wheel 3 ft in the air at tip in point and I still made it. Rear wheel touched down just about when my front wheel approached the rumble strip. It swung out, but tapped the rider next to me in the shoulder and stayed more or less behind the front.

    I'm sure you can do something similar on a street-based bike, but I recommend building up to it gradually!

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  22. #22
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Ken's answer is more level headed! I'm a nutter.

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  23. #23
    Just Registered Crash Dummy Denno's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I hate to even mention this, but I have tipped it into T3 aggressively at maximum braking. You need to be off the brakes before you hit the crack in the pavement, but otherwise what you can do with trail braking on a GP bike is otherworldly. I remember one race where I was in too hot on lap one in heavy traffic and I had the rear wheel 3 ft in the air at tip in point and I still made it. Rear wheel touched down just about when my front wheel approached the rumble strip. It swung out, but tapped the rider next to me in the shoulder and stayed more or less behind the front.

    I'm sure you can do something similar on a street-based bike, but I recommend building up to it gradually!
    Nice

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  24. #24
    Perpetual Amateur CEO's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I hate to even mention this, but I have tipped it into T3 aggressively at maximum braking. You need to be off the brakes before you hit the crack in the pavement, but otherwise what you can do with trail braking on a GP bike is otherworldly. I remember one race where I was in too hot on lap one in heavy traffic and I had the rear wheel 3 ft in the air at tip in point and I still made it. Rear wheel touched down just about when my front wheel approached the rumble strip. It swung out, but tapped the rider next to me in the shoulder and stayed more or less behind the front.

    I'm sure you can do something similar on a street-based bike, but I recommend building up to it gradually!
    hahahaha holy shit

    I can hear "Glory Days' playing in the background right now

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  25. #25
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Cornering Technique...

    They'll pass you by in the wink of a young girl's eye... or something like that!

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