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couple post weekend questions

  1. #1
    Lifer s a x m a n's Avatar
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    couple post weekend questions

    so i'm planning on how to make the next weekend, but also thinking about what went wrong with me in race #1.

    My tires this weekend felt more slippery then usual. They had 6 races on them and a couple practices, but i'm no jeff wood, and they seem fine.

    I assume that they were moving around more because of the heat (the dash for cash I had better grip (lots of clouds/cooler), until the rain). Is there anything that I could have done to limit this? I kept my tire temps at the michelin recommendation 31front/28rear. The rear was the one that was moving the most (under power).

    The bike felt stronger this weekend too (no huminity?).

    Just curious to what people thought, or suggestions you might have.

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  2. #2
    First name on the shit list.... SVRACER01's Avatar
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    couple post weekend questions

    Kayara might help with you tire question a little better... but... i think the higher the temp the MORE air you run. we are talking a pound or two here. i dont know how the temps were on sat. but on sun i ran about the same pressures as you on my SV/dunlops and they felt great

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  3. #3
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    couple post weekend questions

    When it's hotter, the tires definitely move more. Throttle modulation and a light touch on the bars is the key, but unfortunately there's only one way to get better at it, and that is to make mistakes like you did saturday and eventually you will develop spidey senses for wheelspin/slides.

    We were chatting about it at trackday. for years, we would crash and it seemed like there was just no warning, or not enough to help us. Now, it's like the bike is talking to us before it even slides. In practice on sunday morning I lost the front like five times at the entrance to 12 and I didn't fall.

    It's weird, but there's nothing anyone can really say to help YOU learn to do it. It just takes experience, which you ARE gaining, despite feeling unable to do anything about it yet.

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  4. #4
    Lifer
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    6 races and practices is way too much on a set of tires. were you running on cords by then? You have to read the tread and don't be cheap. I get three races and a maybe two practices out of a rear tire and twice the life out of the front. I also was running slicks in the dash for cash and didn't have any slides or spins in the rain. I'd say problem one is tires. Two and three could be you're too tense and/or pushing yourself too hard and riding above your head.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  5. #5

    couple post weekend questions

    Yep... I think 6 races is WAY overboard for a 600cc bike at your pace.

    You've learned lesson number one about Race Economics. (or even TRACK DAY economics)

    Tires are CHEAP compared to the other bills you get when you crash.

    I was doing no more than 2 races on tires when I was going for the Championship. Before that, no more than 3.

    After they were raced on, they went into the practice rotation for at least 3 practice sessions... or until they got dangerously slippery.

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    Tony
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  6. #6
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    couple post weekend questions

    Certainly, tire performance must have been tailing off. but is that the cause of a crash? or just one factor?

    I think Jamie's question is still valid...

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  7. #7
    Lifer Karaya One's Avatar
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    couple post weekend questions

    In this summer heat, I would have run more pressure to help control the tires heat build-up.

    For the rear, 32lbs and the front 33lb's.

    However, you put a lot of races into those tires in mid-summer heat. The ambient temp was already. Asphalt temp was MUCH higher. This just abuses rubber.

    You are running the right compounds. They are just cooked. Call your man and we'll get them out.

    AND - consider slicks. You may get more life out of them.

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  8. #8
    Lifer
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    couple post weekend questions

    The tires are the major factor, not the only cause. But 6 Races, including GT's is completely rediculous, an advanced rider can maybe run around spent tires to a point, but not that point. Unfotunately that's the only thing we know caused the crash, we can't give advice because we didn't see the crash and we don't know what was going on with the bike. Likely Jaime doesn't either, that's why he doesn't understand why he crashed. Do you know exactly what you were doing when you crashed? How did the bike crash? Front pushed then the back spun? Typically you can spin the rear upcoming out of turns as long as your not fighting the front, the rear goes out from under you when the front is cocked a little to the side and your get on the gas. you can see some idicators on your tires of this.

    New racers make a lot of mistakes that they're not aware of, I know I did last year, and after a while I found the feedback when something isn't going right. Now I'm getting a better feel for what the bike is doing, and I'm crashing much less. I watched a couple novice races this weekend and could not believe the crazyness going on there.

    New racers usually think it's the bike. I can't count the number of new racers that walk into GMD's garage talking about how the bike is doing this and the bike is doing that, you tell them it's their riding and they want six more opinions and something on the bike fixed.

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  9. #9
    Lifer legalspeed's Avatar
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    couple post weekend questions

    Originally posted by Karaya One
    In this summer heat, I would have run more pressure to help control the tires heat build-up.

    For the rear, 32lbs and the front 33lb's.

    there is you answer.

    + 2 lbs for 92 degrees and above. That is to start.

    I had the same problem, had to let it go and fade back to 4th in an endurance race after challenging for first; brand new buns; running 28-29; should have been 31-32 (or more).

    Less preassure to build up heat, more preassure to cool the carcass; motards with tubes - fuck off.

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    LRRS\CCS\WERA #486

  10. #10
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hessogood

    New racers make a lot of mistakes that they're not aware of, I know I did last year, and after a while I found the feedback when something isn't going right. Now I'm getting a better feel for what the bike is doing, and I'm crashing much less. I watched a couple novice races this weekend and could not believe the crazyness going on there.

    New racers usually think it's the bike. I can't count the number of new racers that walk into GMD's garage talking about how the bike is doing this and the bike is doing that, you tell them it's their riding and they want six more opinions and something on the bike fixed.
    I fully agree with this one. That's why I suggested to Jaime that he bump quickly. I would add that they also like to blame the tires. I haven't found a tire yet that will just go from good, to dump me on my head bad in a session or three. (I haven't run Bridgestones yet though!) I never really noticed ANY difference from new to old until I started running sub 22's or so.

    I'm sure 600s eat rubber faster and I agree they could have not been up to the job, especially in the heat...

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  11. #11
    Lifer Karaya One's Avatar
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    [ I haven't found a tire yet that will just go from good, to dump me on my head bad in a session or three.
    We call that a DUNLOP.

    doh!!!

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  12. #12
    Lifer
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    Originally posted by Karaya One
    We call that a DUNLOP.

    doh!!!
    i call it pirelli.

    ohhh burn

    Good grip in 6 to on your ass in 12.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  13. #13
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    I call it a 'Stone. Dumps you on your ass before it ever even comes in...

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  14. #14
    Lifer
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    Originally posted by Paul_E_D
    I haven't run Bridgestones


    I hate the bridgestone distributor. Fortunately the new support at the track is phenominal. After trying every brand multiple times last year, I'd take Bridgestone or Michelin. Everything else I'll hope my competition uses.

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  15. #15
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    I've heard such mixed things about the tires. One negative is that I've seen tires with one session on them that literally never scuffed in. They were still smooth like a tire that has spun out...

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  16. #16
    Lifer Karaya One's Avatar
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    That's Quentin. He's also a Michelin sub-distributor.

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  17. #17
    Lifer
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    Originally posted by Karaya One
    That's Quentin. He's also a Michelin sub-distributor.
    that's him. i don't like him, i stongly don't like him. Not at all. And that's a nice as I can say it. I spoke to some of his superiors that got everything straightened out for me really quick at the beginning of the season. Rick at underground supercycle has been doing a great job since, could not ask for better service.

    I don't scrub in the birdgestones. They come wrapped so there's no mold release on them, jump on the track and race.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  18. #18
    Lifer Karaya One's Avatar
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    I have a shop that is very fond of the Bridgestone race tires. They have nothing but praise for them.

    They deal with Quentin at Summit and VIR.

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  19. #19
    Lifer s a x m a n's Avatar
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    let me make it clear that I am in no way blaming the tires for me pitching myself on my head.

    I know that I could and should have controlled the slide better ... just wondering if there were other things I should be aware of as far as tire pressure etc in high temp days like that.

    what happen in turn 2 was this, i got a great line through 1, 1a, and into 2. I started on the gas (10%?) just before the apex of 2 like I usually do, and slowly started to roll on, and I got the about 75-80% throttle the rear spun up, then hooked up, then spun up again. I remember the front end doing some twitching between the spinups, then I got pitched off.

    As far as the 2nd crash in race #15, i was just riding and driving out of 12 like normal where I lost the rear again (wet track), but that time I let it slide and just left the throttle where I had it. It hooked up so quick that it just pitched me forward and off the bike.

    again, I truely belive that I should be able to make these adjustments when things start to go bad (i save a front end slide in turn 6 early in the day) ... but yes, i'm still learning.

    I am just looking for more information.

    People can call it riding over my head, or whatever you want ... but I wasn't turning any times faster than I normally do, or was I chasing anyone down. I was just trying to hit my marks and do the best I can.

    One of the reasons I move up to AM as well is so that I put myself out of "the chase" .... right now I know I'm not even close to the front, so I can focus on my riding and try to tag along at times and see where I can improve.

    live and learn and race again

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  20. #20
    Lifer McBiggity's Avatar
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    my advice- Enjoy your vacation!!!!!!!!!!!



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  21. #21
    Lifer s a x m a n's Avatar
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    i'm trying but i'm consumed with thoughts of racing and getting back out there

    i love it!!!

    plus, i'm feeling less beat up now .. the first two days were rough, but its just the bruises and shit that bother me now. hehehe

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  22. #22
    ....... Nazo's Avatar
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    couple post weekend questions

    Originally posted by s a x m a n


    plus, i'm feeling less beat up now .. the first two days were rough, but its just the bruises and shit that bother me now. hehehe
    Suck it up and stop being a pussy! Ha,ha
    Just kidding bro.
    I actually feel for ya man, you have had a hard first season out there with crashing.

    From briefly reading this post, my only opinion/advice is buy tires more often.
    3 races and a couple practices and my rear tire gets slippery.
    Your not much slower, those tires are beat.

    Better luck next weekend man
    See ya at the track

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  23. #23
    FUCK OFF Hardcore's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nazo
    Suck it up and stop being a pussy! Ha,ha
    +1

    turn 12 was greeeesssy---I slid the sv almost sideways once running the same lines as usual

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  24. #24
    Lifer
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    i don't know what would cause the tire to spin, catch and spin again. If the rear spins you should hold a constant throttle it will spin and grab traction slowly and come back into line provided you aren't inputting the bars. On a big spin the engine makes a noise kindof like slipping the clutch. If the front end was twisching you were probably inputting the bars on your drive out instead of letting the bike work. IF you're at 75-80% throttle you should have been way passed the any crash point. By time I'm at 75-80% throttle turn two is long gone and I'm getting close to the wall.

    You're saying in 12 you highsided? that's not something that will happen from staying on the gas in a slide. Maybe the slides are throwing an SR into you, you're tightening on the bars and the bike isn't able to handle as it wants to. I wouoldn't consider the track wet. I was in the race, got some drops on my shield and they had the debri flags pointed at the sky at all the stations. Like I said, i was on slicks and didn't slide.

    You can't say you weren't pushing. If you ended up on the ground you went past your ability, and sometimes that's part of learning. It's racing, we're all out there pushing to run our top pace and faster. When you crash you have to understand what you did to cause the crash and then correct it. You bike performs acording to the inputs that you give it, And like we all said, your tires were complete junk.

    And happy birthday.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  25. #25
    First name on the shit list.... SVRACER01's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hardcore
    +1

    turn 12 was greeeesssy---I slid the sv almost sideways once running the same lines as usual
    thats because you dont know what you are doing. im not sliding and im faster than you

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