Endurance Racing

[csmutty]

Watching a 15 minute sprint is completely different than watching a 3 hour endurance race. Attention span is the culprit.

I don't think 75% would be enough for LRRS to see the benefit in doing it $$ wise for their efforts.

[tsorfas]

so you think that in 2014 with 12 teams ($3600 additional revenue) and in 2013 with 11 teams LRRS lost money on the endurance race that took place at 4pm on friday...?

[csmutty]

No. Are you going to make another 3 day event on the calendar though?

[tsorfas]

dude sorry but your statement has 0 logic and support.
if thats how any organizations was thinking we would have no racing at all.
also then LRRS should not have Formula 300, no 125gp class, and no p89.

[tsorfas]

No. Are you going to make another 3 day event on the calendar though?

No because you dont have to. Legit all you have to do is cut short lunch on Saturday and transfer 2 races to sunday, while keeping the track open for an extra hour.
Legit MINIMAL additional effort and almost NO additional cost.

[csmutty]

No because you dont have to. Legit all you have to do is cut short lunch on Saturday and transfer 2 races to sunday, while keeping the track open for an extra hour.
Legit MINIMAL additional effort and almost NO additional cost.

Just saying that lunch is the corner workers only break. And after doing that job, I would not suggest that option.

I'll just keep on being a logicless realist from the spoiled country of America.

[tsorfas]

Just saying that lunch is the corner workers only break. And after doing that job, I would not suggest that option.

I'll just keep on being a logicless realist from the spoiled country of America.

fine dont cut lunch. keep the track open for 90 minutes instead of 60. big deal.

you be whatever you want my friend, that the beauty of this world, you can be whatever you wanna be in this life

[tsorfas]

so far the objections are:

1)People dont want to ride that long.. FALSE we had 140+ entries in GT races

2) Cash flow... FALSE one or two endurance events would bring more money from entries of P89 and 125 classes combined!

3) no time... Again i gave an idea or two, i am sure there are people better than me to either create a plan or find a solution to that. i also think there is one or two weekend that we have no legend cars, which is also extra time to either start racing earlier or later.

the only valid reason I see so far is most see the endurance race as a hustle and dont want to put the extra work in, because if it wasnt like that LRRS wouldnt be waiting for me to suggest it, they would have already done it.

[Kurlon]

The motard race had good attendance, dunno if that'll repeat with the same sponsoring group as a LOT of participants were not happy with the 'long' straights and hadn't prepared / geared for them. We're also a motard heavy group in general compared to everywhere else in the US as a road racing series.

You're also forgetting some of the costs for the racers. Yeah, there's the entry fee. There is also tires, gas, wear and tear, etc. Start doing that regularly and you're spending a LOT more time in the garage making repairs and doing preventative work. A 3hr endurance race puts more hours on the bike than I typically do in a normal weekend, all practices plus a GT and 3 sprints.

But this is all beside the point. What is the sales pitch to NHMS/LRRS to convince them they should do more? It being great for us but more work for them isn't good enough.

- More entry fees? Sure, after they keep reg open far longer than initially announced, right up to the start of the race practically 'cause none of us can commit to anything.
- More spectators? Even most of the paddock was doing other stuff during the last one, if the racers won't drop everything to watch what makes you think people will?
- More racers? They don't want to travel up for a normal race, what's the draw to put extended wear and tear in? A purse? Uh-oh, now we're cutting into the gains from more entry fees...

You say endurance racing isn't a hard sell, the problem is you're trying to sell it as a racer to NHMS as if they're a bunch of racers too. That angle won't get you anywhere. Forget that you're passionate about this as a racer, step back and really try to sell this as one business to another with the info you've already got. You're going to find that there isn't much concrete to sell on.

You REALLY want to make it happen? Talk to Tom, he'll tell you the costs straight up to use the track for a day, timing and scoring, corner workers, ambulances, the whole nine yards. You pay the fee, they'll make the show happen as you dictate, you collect the entries to try and recoup your costs. I have the numbers from last year, some day the mini scene will be back to it's heyday...

Don't get me wrong, I love participating in the endurance races. I still have a dream of building up a proper vintage mount some day and spearheading a team on it. The thought of playing panic wrench gets me all tingly. If NHMS asks my opinion, I'll be screaming "YES" before they finish the question. But if you ask me why we only get the two opportunities we do, I'm going to play devil's advocate as I'm doing now.

Talk to Tom about it, I've been pleased with how approachable the man is. I suspect he thinks I'm a total loon at this point, but he'll still answer my questions straight up. I can also direct you to a couple others in New England who run tracks and race series who can provide additional insight as to how the decision making process goes at that level.

[tsorfas]

josh why are you adding the cost of a full race weekend to ONE endurance race that takes place during a planned and in place race weekend?

you know the numbers better than me. so you tell me how much it costs them to keep the track open for 2 more hours during an event that ALL the staff is ALREADY there.

I am not Director of Operations/Events for NHMS or LRRS or CCS. so for me to dictate it or run is not very realistic.

They tried one endurance race two years ago. they tried one last year. ALL I AM SAYING IS TRY 2 this year and see what happens. If someone can confirm that LRRS/NHMS LOST money because of the two endurance events (one in 2013 and one in 2014) i honestly from the bottom of my heart apologize for bringing up a stupid idea... i just find it very hard to believe unless someone tells me exact numbers.

[tsorfas]

What is the sales pitch to NHMS/LRRS to convince them they should do more? It being great for us but more work for them isn't good enough.

- More entry fees? Sure, after they keep reg open far longer than initially announced, right up to the start of the race practically 'cause none of us can commit to anything.
- More spectators? Even most of the paddock was doing other stuff during the last one, if the racers won't drop everything to watch what makes you think people will?
- More racers? They don't want to travel up for a normal race, what's the draw to put extended wear and tear in? A purse? Uh-oh, now we're cutting into the gains from more entry fees...

More entry fees.. YES. fuck that noise about us not being able to commit. tons of work arounds. You open registration during lunch for 45 minutes and thats it. past has shown that we have 10-15 entries. it wont take more than 45 minutes to put those in. especially if half prereg. you make it even more appealing to prereg. you pre reg cost is $300. you late? cost is $400. here is your extra money from entries.

AM p89 had 1 entry this whole year... just saying

More spectators? No it wont, but i dont think there is any revenue for NHMS or LRRS from spectators.. maybe 2% of LRRS. the vending machine by the bathrooms generates more revenue than spectators during LRRS.

More racers? Yes i believe in that. Because if even ONE team from outside of LRRS attends thats 4 new races to the track. and they will pay their entree fee and leave their money at NHMS just like the rest of us.


Yes you are right I am extra passionate about this because I like it and I am a racer. but I can clearly see some value in it, actually lots of it.
Endurance racing sells, thats a fact, there is no argument there. The argument can be why it doesnt sell at NHMS but the concept sells, period.

[Kurlon]

Based on the numbers I have, for two hours of track time, they did not cover the costs for a Friday from $3600 in entries.

My numbers are based on ME renting the track, and I don't when overtime officially kicks in for the various groups involved, etc, so we're talking Wild Ass Guesstimate here.

And we're not saying you've brought up a stupid idea, you just keep asking why it hasn't happened and we're all trying to provide possible reasons as best we can short of actually being NHMS and in the decision chain. As I noted before, if it was purely as rosy a picture as you've painted, there would be an endurance every weekend, not just the 7 that host LRRS.

[Kurlon]

More entry fees.. YES. fuck that noise about us not being able to commit. tons of work arounds. You open registration during lunch for 45 minutes and thats it. past has shown that we have 10-15 entries. it wont take more than 45 minutes to put those in. especially if half prereg. you make it even more appealing to prereg. you pre reg cost is $300. you late? cost is $400. here is your extra money from entries.

Here is where you show your heart is getting in the way of your perception of reality. The reality is, both times they had to keep registration open till the last minute despite everyone knowing well in advance what the game was going to be. If you can't acknowledge that we can't really have a conversation on the topic.

[tsorfas]

someone very smart told me what i already knew but had let myself forget.

NESR or any motorcycle forum is not the place to make things like that happen, or even really talk about it. my bad to those involved.

this thread really is " Sav wants more endurance racing"

[Kurlon]

someone very smart told me what i already knew but had let myself forget.

NESR or any motorcycle forum is not the place to make things like that happen, or even really talk about it. my bad to those involved.

this thread really is " Sav wants more endurance racing"

Correct, if you want to know WHY NHMS only runs what we've got now, ASK THEM. Talk to Tom.

[tsorfas]

Here is where you show your heart is getting in the way of your perception of reality. The reality is, both times they had to keep registration open till the last minute despite everyone knowing well in advance what the game was going to be. If you can't acknowledge that we can't really have a conversation on the topic.

i believe that was because it was allowed. if NHMS/LRRS puts the effort and time to give us a second endurance race, we should at least give them the respect to be on point.

it really comes down to mentality around this.

at the end of the day almost every other track has one or more endurance events, and they make money and people participate and registration works just fine.

for some reason thats not the case at NHMS/LRRS. and I certainly will not be the person who changes that.

[Kurlon]

at the end of the day almost every other track has one or more endurance events, and they make money and people participate and registration works just fine.

Just because they hold the event doesn't mean someone didn't loose money in the process... lots of tracks with failing financials still flailing around out there, FYI.

Edit: On the entries, we had hard cutoff times and were told if there weren't enough entries by then, the race wouldn't occur. When those times came up, we didn't have enough entries. Those that had entered on time begged for an extension and in turn pesters others to get their acts together. Had they just held the line as you suggested, the race wouldn't have happened, period.

[Kurlon]

for some reason thats not the case at NHMS/LRRS. and I certainly will not be the person who changes that.

And this just clicked... if you're this passionate about it, and this certain of it, and this offended by the lack of more events, why WOULDN'T you be the one to lead the charge? With everything else you've latched onto and run with, I don't get where this backpedaling originates from?!

[tsorfas]

in every other track i visited in 2014 I was allowed to register ANY time during the day. Even on 1st call. Both with ASRA and CCS. it is not that much effort. it really takes 1 or 2 people and you go at the end of the grid. i think we are making things bigger deal than they actually are.

[csmutty]

Allowing reg all day wouldn't be realistic if there were entries late and they went to the back. If there was already a row of 4 at the back of the grid and another regd last minute all of the races behind that grid would have to be shifted back a row. That would be hugely inconvenient for the pregrid workers.

[tsorfas]

its an inconvenience only at LRRS because we mix so many classes per race. it works just fine everywhere else. legit EVERYWHERE else.

[csmutty]

And there's your answer...

[Mr. Kurtz]

someone very smart told me what i already knew but had let myself forget.

Not that smart.

this thread really is " Sav wants more endurance racing"

Nothing wrong with that, I just don't think it'll all happen with LRRS. USCRA does their at NHMS, and then there are the two endurance races we talked about at NJMP. Let's start planning.

[number9]

Without digging up a rule book.. what is P89 racing? pre-1989 bikes?

[SVRACER01]

id love to do an endurance race. it would be impossible for me to get time off from work during the classic and because ive been out of racing for as long as i have it would be a big investment for me. i consider myself a bit of an "ironman" when doing laps at NHMS though and feel that i could stay out there and ride for quite some time. i remember when GT races were 25-30min. towards the end is when i would be able to gain some spots and make up time as people would get tired and start making mistakes. theyve cut down the GT times so much that they are only a couple laps longer than a sprint race now.