I knew this would happen and The PTwins DEBATE.

[a13x]

Still, sumo bike outbrakes, outhandles, and out accelerates an EX no problem. Doubt topspeed is 'that' much farther off.

Anyway, have fun.

I agree with Darrell, gonna race Proddy Twin, race a EX (or a GS, god help you).

[Kurlon]

Still, sumo bike outbrakes, outhandles, and out accelerates an EX no problem. Doubt topspeed is 'that' much farther off.

Might be time to alter the rules, exempt specific machines from the class to maintain a more level playing field? (I note this occurs in some other classes, Buells are exempt from one, Desmo motors have lower cc limits, etc). Or just establish a minimum bike wet weight, that'd slap the Aprilia right upside the head while leaving the venerable EX500 and similar street derived machinery alone.

How often DO the classes get revised anyways?

[Doc]

Still, sumo bike outbrakes, outhandles, and out accelerates an EX no problem. Doubt topspeed is 'that' much farther off.

Anyway, have fun.

I agree with Darrell, gonna race Proddy Twin, race a EX (or a GS, god help you).

Or even a stock Hawk....

[Pittenger5]

Obviously Im gonna agree with Darrell on this one. Maybe the rules need to be rewritten, but I like the spec class, since they're not really competitive anywhere else, and the price of racing is a lot lower than most. I probably wouldnt be able to afford racing if I didnt run an EX right now. When I told people I was the first non-motard to finish in LWSM they said, well thats a win. Well, it might feel that way, but I came in 5th. Whats the point of running a bike if you have no chance of winning? (In the sense all weekend, I run LWSM and GTL with no chance of winning, but at least I have a reasonable shot in PTwins.)
After the races last weekend there was a BIG debate whether there was a certain motard was technically PTwins eligable. Darrell and I waited for probably an hour to see if they'd DQ this bike or not, so there was a lot of discussion among the powers that be. Basically we were saying, if motards are now eligable we'd be fighting for 2nd place every weekend, what fun is that. It would be time to look to a different bike in different races where there is that CHANCE to win. So basically, it may be legal to race, but I would vote for rule changes to keep PTwins as its currently run, basically all EXs with a GS apparently thrown in.

[Doc]

That is the only way to go. Lobby for a rule change.

While your at it keep the Motards in LWSM and out of ULSB.

I understand the "spec class" but what your saying is you want an EX500 class. (GS500's don't even compare).
If a bike fits in the rules then I don't see the fuss.

I'd love a Hawk only class, It just isn't gonna happen.

[Honclfibr]

We're saying we *have* an EX500 class. Everyone who competes in PTWN rides an EX500. That's the whole point. Everybody rides the same bike, set up basically the same way, and we go out there every weekend and see who's faster. That's what we do, that's what our class is about. I don't really understand why anyone would want to come in and do something different. I guess it's tracktime but you'd only really be racing yourself.

[Pittenger5]

Well I just seem to think thats the "spirit" of the PTwins class. Maybe its not how it was intended, maybe it was, but I just think thats the way its come across, and a LOT of people seem to think thats perfectly acceptable. I think its almost a wink wink set of rules that people will leave the PTwins class as it seems to be run, with basically just EXs to let them run cheap bikes, without all the fiddling and spending money to just let them race.

[Kurlon]

So, end all the drama and the winking, it's disturbing to watch from the stands...

Lobby to update the class to a spec class. One of the reasons I'm starting to stray from minis to race with the Loudon crew was the extreme lack of drama I observed in the pits. Everyone was out to have a good time and help others have a good time. I miss that from my first season racing minis. Egos, whiney little spoiled brats, and other miscreants took over the sport and took a good chunk of the fun out of it. If it's sneaking into Loudon, please nip it in the butt. On the other hand, maybe I'm just reading too much into this from the forum?

Edit: And I appologize if I started any of this with my announcement of racing a GS. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just looking to rub elbows and bang a bar or two in good fun with other racers.

[Honclfibr]

Racing in the summer, Drama in the winter. We run a year-round program

please nip it in the butt.

For all intensive purposes, the butt has already been nipped. The drama is a pigment of your imagination, take it for granite that we are a bunch of good guys.

[Pittenger5]

Youre DEFINTELY reading too much into it. I think this is the only class youd get this sort of argument simply because what people in the class, myself and Darrell included, expect from the class, and those outside the class, Doc in this case, see the class as. We all have our opinions and they greatly differ, not that some of us are right, and some are wrong. There is no such debate in any other class, because PTwins is the only way that those in the class tend to see as a spec class. Everything other class is basically wide open.
Although I will agree with the other posts, if youre trying to skirt the technicalities to win every race, then youre no better than someone who can run top amateur times but sandbags in novice. If youre doing it for the reasons Doc described, which I fully believe, then its another matter entirely. Id still just rather see EXs in PTwins.
As for everyone having fun and making sure others have fun, thats withotu a doubt the way it is in the LRRS community. Except on the racetrack, I wont hesitate to put anyone in the wall on the track, but we can be friends before and after a race.

[Kurlon]

Except on the racetrack, I wont hesitate to put anyone in the wall on the track

Geico commercial

[978chris]

Really, $1000? Seems a bit under market value for a monster 620. But if you're saying we can all pick up 620s for a grand I'm all ears.

I realize that the 620s are legal for PTWNs based on the rules, and that others have run them. I just don't see what you really accomplish by turning our little class into an arms race. We race EX500s. They're cheap, easily tuned and maintained, and those of us who run PTWN enjoy going out there and competing against others on equal footings weekend after weekend.

We don't mess with the other classes. We run in LWSM without (excessive) bitching about the motards. All we ask for is one class where we racers can compete against each other without the constant debate of "that guy had motor on me" or "he's got more money to sink into suspension/tires/etc".

Like I said, you're more than welcome to compete with an EX. It's a fun class and I would encourage anyone who has the notion to do so. But if you really feel that the monster 620 has an advantage over our machines (and it may, I don't really know one way or the other) ask yourself why you're really doing this. Are you attempting to join our little weekly race and pit yourself against other riders in a class of skill? Or are you trying to exploit some technical rules loophole in order to gain some silly "advantage" by purchasing and outfitting a bike that would cost more than most of us are willing to spend on our little racing hobby?

There's no money to be won in PTWN racing (or any club racing to be found). The only satisfaction that I've found in racing was from beating other riders on equal footing, knowing that their machine was equal to mine. What would you really gain from trying to "tip the scales" in your favor, running a bike that you felt was superior to those that are commonly run? Certainly not respect. If it's respect your after, there are plenty of EX500s for sale; feel free to purchase one and run it in your race for the glory and admiration that comes from being a PTWN champion

dude just stop, my wife is gonna kill me if i start this shit...

[Pittenger5]

Geico commercial

Haha good, I was hoping people would catch that reference. I wouldnt actually purposely put anyone into the wall. Though I might have almost done that once or twice accidentally.

[Doc]

Lets get a few things straight.

Darrell is a great guy and was very helpful to me my first season. He even put up with my Hawk in LWSM knowng full well it wasn't legal and it would only be a matter of time before I beat him.

Dolla is cool as well. Although I didn't have a chance to snatch the dollar off his bike the last race weekend it was nice racing with him as well.

There is NO drama. I want more track time, I want to run something with the same Geometry as my 800ss just less motor.
I want to ride with and COMPETE with friends and I want to run a legal bike in a class.

These guys are "EX Mafia" and want to keep the Ptwins class to themselves... I find no fault in that. I would lobby for a rule change and I will go race LWSM and stay out of the "EX500 only" class. (or as Darrell puts it "Shitty Mcbikefest" )

[Doc]

Haha good, I was hoping people would catch that reference. I wouldnt actually purposely put anyone into the wall. Though I might have almost done that once or twice accidentally.

I think that is the new running joke in the pits... I am always saying I am gonna put Puppet in the wall with his friggin Motard!

[Honclfibr]

dude just stop, my wife is gonna kill me if i start this shit...

Just call me the Pied Piper of PTWNs

Seriously though, it really is a lot of fun. In addition to being incredibly cheap compared to any other class, I enjoy the fact that there's "No crying in PTWN". If you get beat, you get beat because the guy in front of you is a better rider. We all know what our bikes are capable of (a lot less than they are driven to). I can look at the top expert times and say to myself that's my goal. I could do that on this bike. I mean, I *can't*, but I *could*.

Just tell your wife you're going up to "practice".

[Pittenger5]

Haha or that son of a bitch that booted Dan off in turn 12. I still laugh at that joke, I kinda wish I was on the inside loop for that whole situation.

[Pittenger5]

Obviously Darrell and I are biased, I dont think either one would argue against that. All I know is that I dont drive to loudon every weekend and spend the money to have no chance at winning. At least when I come in third or worse in PTwins its not cause the other guy has a faster bike. Its because of the limits of my own abilities, that I can live with. Its nice to know that BJ can hop on my bike and run 8 seconds a lap faster than I can. Especially on the expert level youre able to run and win without having to worry about that guys not necessarily better than me but his bikes faster. People like Scott Greenwood, hes an excellent rider no doubt, but every day it seems his bikes over on the dyno getting tuned. I dont know his sponsorships or anything, but I know a LOT of people cant afford that. Maybe Greenwoods a better rider, or maybe he just has the ability to squeeze that extra horsepower or two. Then look at Ryan Nicholson, excellent rider obviously. Right now hes stuck with a bike that in the grand scheme of things isnt gonna win because of a number of reasons. Is he losing to people better than him, Im sure some, but hes also losing to people that might be comprarable riders, but just have the resources to get that extra little bit out of the bike.

[Doc]

BUT...
Your equal bikes argument is flawed... the rules say a 620 is equal. Quite simply an Air cooled motor with a little more diplacement should make about the same HP as a liquid cooled. Hence the equality.

(I.E. World Superbikes. )

What if I run a 620 and don't podium? Does that mean I suck as a rider? (possibly) but if I win then it is the bike because I am not on an EX?

What if Buddha or Kurlon win? The they are great riders or they are cheating because they don't have an EX in the "EX only" class?







Love this friendly debate guys.

[978chris]

Just call me the Pied Piper of PTWNs

Seriously though, it really is a lot of fun. In addition to being incredibly cheap compared to any other class, I enjoy the fact that there's "No crying in PTWN". If you get beat, you get beat because the guy in front of you is a better rider. We all know what our bikes are capable of (a lot less than they are driven to). I can look at the top expert times and say to myself that's my goal. I could do that on this bike. I mean, I *can't*, but I *could*.

Just tell your wife you're going up to "practice".

well cheap[er] is a good selling point.

she knows i'm getting itchy to race two wheels again, she just isn't happy with asphalt being underneath me.

personally i like the equal footing thing. sounds fun.

[Pittenger5]

Cmon Doc you know how it is. Its all depending on the views of whos saying what. Any EX guy will say its a cheater bike if they win, and they suck if they lose. Anyone else that doesnt have interest in it will say its the rider if it follows the rules. Ill be the first to admit I'm biased, obviously I have an interest on who allows what into PTwins. I just like to be able to compete, and have a shot at winning on a bike. If it starts an arms race like what happens with my example with Ryan and Scott, I'm just not going to be able to afford to compete, and Ill be less willing to spend 2-300 dollars a weekend to fight for 5th place or something. Under the current context of the rules, yes, the 620 whatever it is is legal, and I cant argue about anyone running it, but if thats to be the case, Id be for a rules change. Unfortunatly, as we've seen on the NEAR list, I'm just an invisible novice, and until it startens to threaten BJ or any of them I dont see any changes being made.

[Doc]

I acknowledge you guys are biased. I am biased toward Ducati's... You all know that I tell people who want to get into racing to get an EX500 for cheap thrills...

I don't see it being an arms race money wise if I spend as much as you do.

If I can get a Ptwins ready 620 for under $2000 (that is with spares and rains and extra gearing and extra parts) Would that be fair money wise?

If so then your "Arms race" argument is mute as well.

If you want a class with "equal bikes/equal eqiupment and let the rider decide" I am all for it. Lets make it a Ducati 620 class. I'll start lobbying tomorrow.

I am not as invisible as you on NEAR. I'll have to see if I can stir the pot a little more over there. I posted asking about it and Garham and BJ both aid they are legal.

[Honclfibr]

It's not about the money at all, though I doubt most of us could race-prep a 620 and run it for a season for anything close to what we do with our EX500s.

I just don't see the point. The EX and the GS are both 80s technology. Is the point to prove that a 20-year newer design is superior? I'm sure it is. The monster has fuel injection, USD forks, a frame that could only be superior to the flexy junk that is an EX500 frame. Better brakes are almost a given.

Hey, if you wanna run the monster noone's gonna stop you. But I still don't get why you would. Plenty of EX500s (or GS500s) out there. Hop one one of those and podium and you'll fit right in. Hop on a monster and do it, well, ok. You won. Congratulations?

[Pittenger5]

I dont necessarily mean an arms race between bike A and B, but you know if for whatever reason people start winning consistantly on the Ducs, whether the bike has a bit of an advantage, or the rider is just better, people on the EXs will have to spend more money to be able to compete, either upgrading (legally) the bike, or sell the EX and buy a Duc in order to be competative. Im just afraid things will come to that and Ill be forced to spend more money I dont have.

[Doc]

It's not about the money at all, though I doubt most of us could race-prep a 620 and run it for a season for anything close to what we do with our EX500s.

I just don't see the point. The EX and the GS are both 80s technology. Is the point to prove that a 20-year newer design is superior? I'm sure it is. The monster has fuel injection, USD forks, a frame that could only be superior to the flexy junk that is an EX500 frame. Better brakes are almost a given.

Hey, if you wanna run the monster noone's gonna stop you. But I still don't get why you would. Plenty of EX500s (or GS500s) out there. Hop one one of those and podium and you'll fit right in. Hop on a monster and do it, well, ok. You won. Congratulations?

I thought I explained why..

Similar geometry to my 800... Interchangeable parts to my 800ss... I get to ride with more friends...inexpensive for me...(I garuntee (how the hell do you spell that?) I won't spend more than $2000)

Don't preach the 20 year tech to me. The Hawk is 20 and Gino came in 3rd in Expert this year. Chris won the AM ULSB crown on a stock motored Hawk and I bet Scott is gonna give it a run next year. I even did OK before I went to Ducati.

I seriously doubt I would be on the podium in AM anyway...