I knew this would happen and The PTwins DEBATE.

[Doc]

I dont necessarily mean an arms race between bike A and B, but you know if for whatever reason people start winning consistantly on the Ducs, whether the bike has a bit of an advantage, or the rider is just better, people on the EXs will have to spend more money to be able to compete, either upgrading (legally) the bike, or sell the EX and buy a Duc in order to be competative. Im just afraid things will come to that and Ill be forced to spend more money I dont have.

Well shit... I started on a Hawk... wasn't really competative 1:26-7's Jumped to the Duc and ran a 1:23...

It is what I had to do to keep up with the SV's

I realize it is not a "Spec" class. But it is same thing. SV's are legal in ULSB.

[a13x]

SV's are legal in ULSB.

You sir are incorrect.

[Doc]

Oh and btw... if I wanted to run a Harley Sportster would that be "unfair"?

[OreoGaborio]

What if I run a 620 and don't podium? Does that mean I suck as a rider? (possibly) but if I win then it is the bike because I am not on an EX?

Why leave room for doubt? Why give anyone a reason to question your ability? If you wanna run PTwins, then great, get on the proper bike. Man up, get an EX & lets see what you can do.


From what I've been told, PTwins was born thanks to the Penguin Racing EX500 fleet. It was a class designed FOR ex500 racing.

[Doc]

You sir are incorrect.

Ducati 620's are legal in Ptwins...

[BMFR6]

SV's are legal in ULSB.

Care to rethink that?

[Doc]

Why leave room for doubt? Why give anyone a reason to question your ability? If you wanna run PTwins, then great, get on the proper bike. Man up, get an EX & lets see what you can do.

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO RUN AN EX500. I WANT TO RUN A DUCATI.


Something similar to the bike I already have. They share parts and I can save a little and have Double the fun!

[OreoGaborio]

Ducati 620's are legal in Ptwins...

Fine, fucking buy one & be the red-headed step child of PTwins but stop crying about how we wanna retain the spirit of PTwins.

Spirit of the law isn't always equal to the law itself.

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO RUN AN EX500. I WANT TO RUN A DUCATI.

THEN FUCKING RUN A DUCATI.... IN LWSM AND ULSB AND GTL AND THUNDERBIKES AND LWSS AND MWSS AND LWGP AND LWSB AND.... get the picture yet?

The EX has ONE class it's competitive in... that's it. Most of us run upwards of 4 or 5 classes... but go look at the results & see where they end up in the other three or four.

[Doc]

Care to rethink that?

Yes I would.....

... Did they make the SV before 99? I swear I was racing them in Novice ULSB...?? Oh WAIT!!! Those were THUNDERBIKES!!...

I stand corrected! Twice!

[Doc]

Fine, fucking buy one & be the red-headed step child of PTwins but stop crying about how we wanna retain the spirit of PTwins.

Spirit of the law isn't always equal to the law itself.


THEN FUCKING RUN A DUCATI.... IN LWSM AND ULSB AND GTL AND THUNDERBIKES AND LWSS AND MWSS AND LWGP AND LWSB AND.... get the picture yet?

The EX has ONE class it's competitive in... that's it. Most of us run upwards of 4 or 5 classes... but go look at the results & see where they end up in the other three or four.

Then why not change the rule to make it an EX only class? Instead of "bullying" people out?

Unless this is a "gentlemans agreement" that the Ptwins class is only for EX500's.

I am not crying about retaining "the sprit of Ptwins" I think it is a great Idea to have an affordable spec class!

I am beginning to see that the "EX Mafia" gets it's name for a reason.

[jtaylor719]

Sell your Duc back to Tony - he needs a competitive bike again.
(did I just say that? I kinda like him outta my way!)

[highsider]

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO RUN AN EX500. I WANT TO RUN A DUCATI.


Something similar to the bike I already have. They share parts and I can save a little and have Double the fun!

Then do it. Who gives a fuck. If its that big of a deal, let them make an EX500 specific class.

I gotta stick up for Doc a bit here. (Never thought I'd do that. ) If he wants to buy and race a bike that is perfectly legal for PTwins, why shouldn't he? If the marginal increase in capability is that big of a deal, start a damn EX500 cup or something. The class is called Production Twins, not EX Mafia's Special Space.

Just my .02 cents.

[Doc]

Sell your Duc back to Tony - he needs a competitive bike again.
(did I just say that? I kinda like him outta my way!)

He has a Duc. He just needs to get used to it again.

Are you still AM next year?

[Doc]

Then do it. Who gives a fuck. If its that big of a deal, let them make an EX500 specific class.

I gotta stick up for Doc a bit here. (Never thought I'd do that. ) If he wants to buy and race a bike that is perfectly legal for PTwins, why shouldn't he? If the marginal increase in capability is that big of a deal, start a damn EX500 cup or something. The class is called Production Twins, not EX Mafia's Special Space.

Just my .02 cents.

I want to run with these guys and have them be HAPPY to have me there...

Doesn't look like it will happen... next thing ya know they will be putting me and the other 620 riders in the wall... (yes there are more than just me thinking about this) You GS guys look out. If you start raining on the EX parade your next!

Maybe I sould just stick with LWSM

[Pittenger5]

I agree, if he can, go for it. Im in the group that says make PTwins an EX only class. Like my story earlier, Darrell and I had to hang around for about an hour to see if a certain type of motard would be considered legal. There was a lot of discussion whether it was. Fortunatly (for us) they ruled it illegal. If they didnt, guess what, people would run those all over PTwins and it wouldnt be much fun for the rest of us EX guys anymore. I say make it EX only, unfortunatly, I dont have much say in the matter, and if its true that BJ and the experts dont see the need to change, well I guess we're out of luck. Maybe if Doc runs his and starts winning they'll change, but who knows. All I know is if you want to run it, do it, but dont be surprised if you do well the year after you wouldve spent money on a bike that will no longer be elligible.

[highsider]

I want to run with these guys and have them be HAPPY to have me there...

Doesn't look like it will happen... next thing ya know they will be putting me and the other 620 riders in the wall... (yes there are more than just me thinking about this) You GS guys look out. If you start raining on the EX parade your next!

Maybe I sould just stick with LWSM

I understand your not wanting to piss off friends; I guess I just dont understand why they have such an issue with this. Maybe its a racer thing I just dont get.

Maybe you should resurrect that piece of shit GS500 of Chad's and then piss and moan to them because their EX500s are so much better, but are still legal in that class.

[Kurlon]

...the way this thread is going, eventually the EX Mafia is going to be actively recruiting for the GS Gestapo! Keep it going guys!

[BMFR6]

i say buy the duc and run it. i can understand and appreciate the desire to keep PTwins an EX only class, but bottom line, its not. there can be a spirit of the class, but not a spirit of the rules, rules are rules and the duc fits. obviously the class wasn't just created for the Penguin fleet, if it was it would be a spec EX class but i imagine when writing the rules, in the "spirit of the class" they left room for other bikes to bring other people into the class and breed additional competition. i think all the EX guys are pissed because doc has a good idea to run with. he's going to buy a bike that is competitive in PTwins AND other classes so instead of competeing in one class and talking about "being the first EX to finish" in other classes he can actually compete. i don't buy the "money is an issue" argument either. i can understand there are a small handful of people where the race expenses are an issue, but pete you said it yourself, most of you run upwards of 4-5 races. why would you not want something more competitive in all of them?

[Doc]

Chad's GS is in my garage with no front suspension and no rear tire, part of the sale is going to fund my 620 purchase.

I'll run it until they change the rule, then I will run it in LWSM.

I hope they change the rule and will do what I can to help make that happen (by kicking some EX butt!! )

[jtaylor719]

Not sure, but I doubt it...might copy your letter to Don and insert my name.

[Doc]

Not sure, but I doubt it...might copy your letter to Don and insert my name.

Just change the details from AM to Expert.

Although you could just say

"Don,
I wanna bump.

Jay"

He'd most likely say yes.

[Honclfibr]

Ok Doc, I shouldn't have singled you out like this. Your reasons for wanting to run a 620 (interchangeable parts) is a good one and makess sense, I was too quick to jump down your throat.

I was just getting a little touchy hearing all the "how can I get an edge in PTWN" questions. I suppose that's always part of racing, trying to get an edge on the competition. The answer has always been "get faster" and that's what I enjoy about the class. That it does away with everything but the rider and allows everyone to compete on a level playing field. It seems to me if that's not what you're looking for, there are plenty of classes for you. PTWN is unique, a little special crappy snowflake. Leave our shitflake how it is please

[Pittenger5]

Ok, I see both sides of the argument here and I feel Ill bullet point my personal arguments so as to stop confusing myself what I'm arguing
1. I'm in favor of an entry level, spec bike class where its the rider not the machine.
2. Since that seems to be the "gentlemens rule" in the EX class, I favor making PTwins an EX class.
3. The reason I think I'm personally worried about other bikes is since there is so little we can do with our bikes, if a bike comes along and it is mostly the bike and NOT the rider, the rest of us are screwed and will always fight for second place, which takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.
4. Doc can run his bike as the rules pertain, I will habor no ill will towards him at all.
5. If it becomes readily apparent he is absolutely destroying the competition, with no disrespect to Docs abilities, I will naturally assuming its a lot to do with the bike. Since I can make any mods to keep up, Im screwed.
6. I do the LWSM and GTL every weekend, I enjoy the racing and the track time, but it is also nice to have at least 1 race a weekend where I have a shot at fighting for first.
To quote one of my favorite movies, "My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals."
So yes, racing is fun, but its also nice to have a chance to win too.

[Doc]

Ok Doc, I shouldn't have singled you out like this. Your reasons for wanting to run a 620 (interchangeable parts) is a good one and makess sense, I was too quick to jump down your throat.

I was just getting a little touchy hearing all the "how can I get an edge in PTWN" questions. I suppose that's always part of racing, trying to get an edge on the competition. The answer has always been "get faster" and that's what I enjoy about the class. That it does away with everything but the rider and allows everyone to compete on a level playing field. It seems to me if that's not what you're looking for, there are plenty of classes for you. PTWN is unique, a little special crappy snowflake. Leave our shitflake how it is please

When did I ask "how can I get an edge in PTWN"?

Thanks for agreeing that my idea is solid.

I don't want "an edge" I just want to run a few more classes... All I can really run with the 800 is ULSB and LWSB. Ptwins and LWSM sounded like good CHEAP alternative classes for me.

I wish I could run the Hawk in some other classes but I can't and the Duc is just... better.

[Doc]

Ok, I see both sides of the argument here and I feel Ill bullet point my personal arguments so as to stop confusing myself what I'm arguing
1. I'm in favor of an entry level, spec bike class where its the rider not the machine.
2. Since that seems to be the "gentlemens rule" in the EX class, I favor making PTwins an EX class.
3. The reason I think I'm personally worried about other bikes is since there is so little we can do with our bikes, if a bike comes along and it is mostly the bike and NOT the rider, the rest of us are screwed and will always fight for second place, which takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.
4. Doc can run his bike as the rules pertain, I will habor no ill will towards him at all.
5. If it becomes readily apparent he is absolutely destroying the competition, with no disrespect to Docs abilities, I will naturally assuming its a lot to do with the bike. Since I can make any mods to keep up, Im screwed.
6. I do the LWSM and GTL every weekend, I enjoy the racing and the track time, but it is also nice to have at least 1 race a weekend where I have a shot at fighting for first.
To quote one of my favorite movies, "My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals."
So yes, racing is fun, but its also nice to have a chance to win too.

In response...
1. Me too
2. Ditto
3. Agreed. I would hope that is not the case... Harley 1000 anyone?
4. Thanks Dolla, means alot
5. Hey!! :
6. Trying running a Hawk in ULSB and LWSB and talk to me about being competative.