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No more HJC helmets at LRRS

  1. #201
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by ginny diva
    Christ another know nothing heard from.........

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    Virginia to you.
    Know nothing about what? You wanna try me, Virginia?


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  2. #202
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by ginny diva
    Christ another know nothing heard from.........

    Ginny girl
    Virginia to you.
    What the hell does this mean?

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  3. #203
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by HBerry
    What the hell does this mean?
    it means she's calling him out as a "Know-nothing heard-from"... and for a first post, i kinda like this chick... sounds like a tough cookie

    HA! COOKIE!

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  4. #204
    "need more coffee" SBT Deb's Avatar
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Snell Ratings DO NOT MEAN THE HELMET IS SAFER. Please this topic is confusing enough for a lot of people let us not make it any worse.

    It is nice to see however the constructive idea posts.....Where is that tough little cookie and can we get her on the track???

    By the way can anyone tell me how to bore out a throttle cable?
    Deb

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  5. #205
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by SBT Deb
    Snell Ratings DO NOT MEAN THE HELMET IS SAFER. Please this topic is confusing enough for a lot of people let us not make it any worse.

    It is nice to see however the constructive idea posts.....Where is that tough little cookie and can we get her on the track???

    By the way can anyone tell me how to bore out a throttle cable?
    Deb
    Snell doesn't have ratings, perhaps this is part of the issue. Again, it's fairly obvious that none the actors in this discussion know anyting about crash helmet design or the safety standards and intent of those regs, not to meniton any materials biases, cost factors, and of all useless info the idea of sponsorships meaning anything to one's safety.

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  6. #206
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    For what it's worth, your first paragraph in this thread basically threw any credibility I may have given you (oh mysterious poster from 2003) right out the window.


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    Boston --> San Diego

  7. #207
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by a13x
    For what it's worth, your first paragraph in this thread basically threw any credibility I may have given you (oh mysterious poster from 2003) right out the window.

    Fair enough, quite frankly I don't care who is spewing the poor information and ideas, it's the poor info and ideas that are lacking credibility, regardless of any so-called credentials, and that was my point in the first place. So far, there is no good info or clear indication of anything more than half-cocked ideas about name-branded helmets and poorly structured concepts of helmet materials. It's terribly irresponsible for anybody running any kind of track operation to be that uninformed about the type of action and situation that was being discussed. Plain and simple.

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  8. #208
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    stop spewing these generic run on sentences + say something that makes sense.
    mr.7 posts in 3 years

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  9. #209
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by SBT Deb
    Snell Ratings DO NOT MEAN THE HELMET IS SAFER.
    What means this then?

    Seriously, the SNELL foundation was founded as a non-profit organization to promote, and do scientific studies into, helmet safety. As far as I know they're the best, and in fact only, organization in this country which does so. And they're not sponsored by *any* helmet manufacturer to do so.

    If we can't trust SNELL to tell us what helmets are safe, who can we trust? Jerry Wood? Vendors? Sorry, no. If you want to be an authority on helmet safety, first dispose of all conflicts of interest. Then, adopt a scientific methodology for testing helmet construction and safety. Once you do that, maybe I'll listen to you when you tell me which helmet is safest. Until then, I'll trust SNELL.

    Jerry Wood has end-all-be-all authority of which helmet I can use to race in LRRS, and I'll respect that and act accordingly on his decisions (as if I had a choice). But as for telling me which helmet I should trust to save my life in a crash, his methodology and motives are suspect. I'll trust SNELL until there is a better standard, thank you.

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  10. #210
    FUCK OFF Hardcore's Avatar
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    yes, you are a true moron!

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  11. #211
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by Honclfibr
    his methodology and motives are suspect.
    Hypothetical situation here D.H.

    Say I walked up to you and said: "Hey Darrell, you can buy either this type (not brand) helmet for $150 (say Helmet A) or this one for the same price (say Helmet B)."

    You'd respond with: "Well what's the difference Alex, they both seem the same to me"

    "Well Darrell, who knows really, but so you know, Helmet Type A has been worn by 5 of the last 5 riders to suffer a brain injury... other than that, no difference"


    Which would you wear? Which would you buy for your mom/sister/friend/girlfriend to wear?



    Suspect motives

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    Boston --> San Diego

  12. #212

    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Allan the INDIVIDUAL speaking (please keep the following rant outside of the Moto Market umbrella - Paul Conley and MM do not share all of my views)...I told myself and everybody else I wouldn't post again, but I believe sooo much in Arai helmets and I want to share my opinions and experiences with all of my fellow road racers in hopes of possibly reaching someone and maybe saving a life...doing so however will probably stir up the pot, but here goes...
    Apparently like many of you, I too have killed many brain cells in my life, but fortunately a few of 'em are still connecting (I think) and here's what they're saying:
    People can buy and race with whatever helmet they want at Loudon as long as it's not on this forth-coming 'list'...but it should not be about lists. It should be the best fitting helmet on the market one can possibly buy! It's not about buying the next cheapest helmet that is not on the list. It's your ONE AND ONLY BRAIN! I just do not understand why people choose to buy premium rubber and/or premium shocks and/or premium motorcycles, but not premium gear...What is wrong with people?!?! If you're gong to race with crap gear, why don't you go out and race with Kymco tires or Tyco Shocks or Chung-Ching motorcycles!?! (I hope that didn't come off as racist!!) Why? Because they perform like shit! Do people seriously think a Kia will provide as much protection as an M-B in a serious car crash?!? ...yet both are approved for highway use in America.
    The best road racers in the WORLD race with the best gear in the WORLD. Scorpion, HJC, and JR, among others, have marketed themselves well and flooded the market in America, but that does not make them the best in the world. Can anyone find one single rider in WorldSBK or MotoGP that rides with either JR, Scorpion, or HJC products? ...good luck. How about F1? Do some research on who wears Arai helmets in F1 and WHY!! Hint: It’s NOT because of MONEY! Don't you think Arai learns something from providing F1 drivers with F1-spec helmets?!? Why is it that everyone has to pretend to be a scientist and figure out the ‘data’ on the internet!?! Arai pays real engineers and real scientists and consults real doctors and then builds the best helmet they can for any rider, not just for Nicky or John or Kenny or Colin or Sete or Dani or…who’s the seventh??...oh yeah, Shinya – HOW COULD I FORGET!?! – He only experienced one of the most horrific crashes ever at 200 MPH down the front straight of Mugello and then waved to the crowd after hitting his head around 10 times while tumbling…and what was he wearing?!?! Yes, an Arai...and I saw that actual helmet in person at Indy – it was still intact - quite impressive...and it is the same exact helmet I wear - nothing was different about it's construction. BTW, that’s 7 out of 19 MotoGP guys – the next highest number is Nolan’s 5…that doesn’t leave very many other helmet makers in the mix. And you can discount Rossi and his AGV – nobody wears AGV except people that buy his race replica…and he only does because he gets paid too much. Suomy is next with 4 riders…have you ever compared a Suomy to an Arai?!? – It’s a rock…and the interior system looks a lot like the Arai’s interior….Hmmm? I wonder why – because they copied it! WE don’t need to worry about what shell works best in this test or in this lab or at this track or that track or whether Don says this or I say that, Arai has done all of that research for us and constructed helmets to perform in REAL WORLD crashes, not just in a lab below 30 MPH from only 7 feet or lower (gimme a break). THE ARAI ENGINEERS KNOW WHAT THEY’RE DOING!! They build the BEST ENERGY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM for your brain in the WORLD. THEY DON'T EVEN WORRY ABOUT PASSING STANDARDS SUCH AS SNELL, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY'LL EXCEED THEM. THEY DON'T BUILD HELMETS IN ORDER TO GET A SNELL STICKER SO THAT THEY CAN SELL MORE HELMETS, THEY BUILD THE BEST ENERGY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM THEY CAN BUILD IN ORDER TO SAVE YOUR BRAIN . Brian Westin of Arai North America once told me, "We don't build helmets so that you'll survive a crash, we build them so that you can stand up and run to safety." Why do people insist on arguing this helmet issue and insist on not paying for a properly fitted Arai?!? WTF!?!?
    Everyone at Loudon (ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS TRACKS in the WORLD!) races with Michelins or Dunlops or Penske or Ohlins or Suzukis or Hondas, yet most of those riders race with gear that riders WHO RACE ON THE SAFEST TRACKS in the WORLD wouldn't be caught dead in (...or would they!?!?). It's not all about marketing and money - it's about SAFETY and FIT and PERFORMANCE! I hate to bring religion into this (ok, that's a lie...just like the big book), but you have one life, one brain, one body - there's no "mystical man in the sky" that's going to save your ass or give you a second chance - so why not buy the best gear you can possibly buy?!?!?!? There's no need to read reports or scour the internet for data, just buy premium products that FIT YOU BEST from a good, knowledgeable, respected vendor in the 'outer-net' (you remember, that 3-dimensional world we live in), not off of the internet! I see so many people wearing gear that does not even fit them correctly, and that comes from not seeking help from a proper vendor. And yes, premium products from a reputable 'brick and mortar' business means more money, but there's a reason for it: WE KNOW OUR SHIT! Here's food (pardon the pun) for thought: If one goes to Europe, do you think one finds 'PREMIUM BEVERAGES' to be Bud and Dunkin' Donuts coffee?!? Europeans don't drink Bud or DD. They also don't ride with certain gear. They know better. We race on one of the most dangerous tracks in the world, we should all be wearing the best gear in the world. Don't diss Don or Jerry or Sandy or anybody else for trying to save your ass.
    If you want help with your suspension, you seek out Peter Kates...if you want help getting thru turn 2, you listen to Eric Wood...if you want the best protection for your brain, you should seek out an expert...preferably an Arai expert. I custom fit approximately 100 Arais a year myself...which is why I'm not worried about "advertising prices" on the internet (Arai of North America knows our shop and is aware of our abilities!)...because Moto Market sells Arai helmets exactly the way Arai WANTS their premium helmets to be sold - CORRECTLY!! - IN PERSON! CUSTOM FITTED (utilizing their interior headliners and cheek pads) BY AN EXPERT! ...NOT over the internet or discounted because it's been on the shelf for 3 years!...NOT because there are six 'round oval' models in stock and they're getting old, so get rid of one to someone with a 'long oval' head! You can't fit a square peg in a round hole! Don't get me started...oh wait, you've already done that.... Mail-order/internet companies DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU, just about your buying power and decreasing their inventory that's getting older and older by the day! The material that actually absorbs the energy in a crash deteriorates over time, so a discounted helmet that does not fit correctly and is already four years old is just a waste of money...

    There is no conspiracy. Buy a new properly fitted Arai off of Deb, buy one from S&C, I don't care - just buy one!

    Why do I get the feeling my next post will be: "Ahh, forget it...what's the point?!??"
    ...And then my last post will be: “I tried...Goodbye.”

    But if I've convinced somebody, anybody, I'll be happy...and if I came off as harsh, I apologize - I get fired up over gear, it's what I do.

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  13. #213
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Christ man, I'll have you fit my next lid just because your passion and concern burns like HOT MAGMA!!!

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    Boston --> San Diego

  14. #214
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Allan........... post of the FUCKING YEAR!!!



    For those of you that still don't agree u should spend money on a good helmet, press play below & go read it again
    <embed src= "http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/mp3/9/4/2/9426.mp3" autostart=false>

    Seriously dude... excelent post

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 05-18-06 at 02:09 AM.
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  15. #215
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by SBT Deb
    By the way can anyone tell me how to bore out a throttle cable?
    Deb
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    Great post, Allan. I love my Arais. Maybe I just drank the Kool-Aid, but I believe in them. I might not have data to show that they are X-much better than anything else, but it's good enough for me. Sure they cost more - but I buy solid colors and begged the shop owner (bought before I knew any of the vendors here) for a racer discount and he was all about it.


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  16. #216
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by a13x
    Hypothetical situation here D.H.

    Say I walked up to you and said: "Hey Darrell, you can buy either this type (not brand) helmet for $150 (say Helmet A) or this one for the same price (say Helmet B)."

    You'd respond with: "Well what's the difference Alex, they both seem the same to me"

    "Well Darrell, who knows really, but so you know, Helmet Type A has been worn by 5 of the last 5 riders to suffer a brain injury... other than that, no difference"


    Which would you wear? Which would you buy for your mom/sister/friend/girlfriend to wear?



    Suspect motives
    Alex, assuming that they both fit my head properly and had the same SNELL rating, I would wear either helmet. Five riders out of however many that crash on racetracks in the course of the year is not even close to a reasonable sample size to base a conclusion on. SNELL has done testing on both helmts which has passed a rigorous set of ever-improving scentific tests whose methods and results are public and subject to review by anyone who cares to challenge them. I don't really undestand this question, as this is *not* hypothetical and I've been saying all along that I have and would continue to wear these helmets without any fear for my life.

    Here's a hypoethical for you, if 5 of the last 5 riders had receieved concussions while wearing Arai helmets, would Jerry Wood be banning Arai helmets today? I'd like to think he would, that his decisions are not based on the manufacturers that sponsor Penguin, but I have at least *some* doubt that there would be a witch hunt on Arai based on 5 crashes, and that doubt means that Jerry Wood's motives are suspect, yes, at least in comparison to SNELL who I am quite confident receive no sponsorship money from Arai whatsover.

    As for Vendors being an authority on which helmt is safer? Here's a quote from this thread: "I have traveled to Daytona and viewed the 200 from the Arai suite back when they sponsered it." Yeah, I'd probably tell you that you shouldn't consider any helmet other than Arai also, if they flew me to Daytona and let me watch the 200 from their private suite. But that would hardly make me an impartial authority on which helmet is safer than another, would it? Once again, I can pretty much guarantee that no member of the SNELL foundation has ever sat in the Arai suite watching the Daytona 200. And that, combined with a clear scientific method for testing helmet safety, is why I'll trust SNELL to tell me which helmets are safe and which are not.

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  17. #217
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by Honclfibr
    Alex, assuming that they both fit my head properly and had the same SNELL rating, I would wear either helmet. Five riders out of however many that crash on racetracks in the course of the year is not even close to a reasonable sample size to base a conclusion on. SNELL has done testing on both helmts which has passed a rigorous set of ever-improving scentific tests whose methods and results are public and subject to review by anyone who cares to challenge them. I don't really undestand this question, as this is *not* hypothetical and I've been saying all along that I have and would continue to wear these helmets without any fear for my life.

    Here's a hypoethical for you, if 5 of the last 5 riders had receieved concussions while wearing Arai helmets, would Jerry Wood be banning Arai helmets today? I'd like to think he would, that his decisions are not based on the manufacturers that sponsor Penguin, but I have at least *some* doubt that there would be a witch hunt on Arai based on 5 crashes, and that doubt means that Jerry Wood's motives are suspect, yes, at least in comparison to SNELL who I am quite confident receive no sponsorship money from Arai whatsover.

    As for Vendors being an authority on which helmt is safer? Here's a quote from this thread: "I have traveled to Daytona and viewed the 200 from the Arai suite back when they sponsered it." Yeah, I'd probably tell you that you shouldn't consider any helmet other than Arai also, if they flew me to Daytona and let me watch the 200 from their private suite. But that would hardly make me an impartial authority on which helmet is safer than another, would it? Once again, I can pretty much guarantee that no member of the SNELL foundation has ever sat in the Arai suite watching the Daytona 200. And that, combined with a clear scientific method for testing helmet safety, is why I'll trust SNELL to tell me which helmets are safe and which are not.
    Spot on.

    And to add, after all that, Snell will tell you that not a single crash helmet ever has been designed or tested to affect concussion or mild traumatic brain injury. One that "exceeds" the standard is irrelevant in those terms, and "safer" is only in regard to having enough helmet for the amount of impact energy you are faced with, which by all accounts of these incidents is well within that standardized Snell level of two hits on a flat anvil of 150J and 110J respectively. Many companies make plastic helmets that show lower g-force values than more expensive FRP equivalents, it's an across the board, known result.

    Who's to say fiberglass is more expensive? It's not always, only perhaps when it's hand-laid at a developed-world labor rate. Take a look at the M2R $60 Snell-approved fiberglass lid, also one of the lightest helmets available, which is, of course, the real reason for using FRP construction, rather than plastic. Just like many other inexpensive, and also Snell-approved lids, no fancy graphics, poor fit and finish, not much ventilation, and not the most comfortable, but less protective? Nope, tested the same as the your race-rep with the recognized sponsor name.

    Snell will tell you all of that outright, they have no materials bias, because it doesn't matter in terms of impact attentuaion performance for their standard, and NHTSA labs wil ltell you the same, because both construction techniques pass their performance standards each and every year.

    Unfortunately, Snell bases it's own findings on initial tests of 5 examples of helmets, so the sample size is only that few to gain the rights to use the label, then random testing is performed according to sticker sales for those speicifc models at the rate of 1/2000 that makes it to a store shelf. BSI is slightly stricter in this regard, testing batches at a higher rate after intial approval, and before they leave the warehouse. DOt random testing hase caught a number of failures over the years, so it is of some concern to ensure quality control, but has BSI caught any more than Snell's random method? According to BSI they've never had a "major" failure. Snell is under contract with their partner companies to not discuss their results, but as I've found Ed Becker will gladly inform you of al lthe ins and outs, and implications of their testing.

    Now, if there is a legitimate failure of any helmet, it should be investigated and channeled through Snell and/or NHTSA, but simply knee-jerking poorly-informed statements about materials or brand names is way off-base in it's approach to addressing any real issue. If any riders were injured due to a defective helmet, that should be taken to court accordingly, but for an organization to dismiss any helmets or materials out-of-hand before any other proceedings based on little, if any, actual evidence is irresponsible and will likely mask a real issue that wil lnot be properly addressed until better thought is put into the discsussion.

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  18. #218
    Lifer
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    volvo's and VW's are safer then benzes and beamers.

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  19. #219
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Gee, the last time I got hit in the head twice with an anvil was... funny, I don't remember that ever happening. All you "scientists" have missed the basics here. Arai and other companies that work directly with racers have MUCH better data than SNELL for what we do, which is RACE.

    SNELL has it's place and creates a baseline for safety, but until they get into the racing game and develop a product over time based on real race crashes, they don't mean much to me.

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  20. #220
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by Paul_E_D
    Gee, the last time I got hit in the head twice with an anvil was... funny, I don't remember that ever happening. All you "scientists" have missed the basics here. Arai and other companies that work directly with racers have MUCH better data than SNELL for what we do, which is RACE.

    SNELL has it's place and creates a baseline for safety, but until they get into the racing game and develop a product over time based on real race crashes, they don't mean much to me.
    Sure, screw the scientific approach, let's go with the fish tales and scar stories to find proof of how hard our head hit when our mom dropped us on the floor as a child. That's the ticket.

    If you understand the reasons for the two-hit apporach, you will know that it's not there for the benefits of multiple impacts, it's there to add to the severity of the hit without adding to the test rig height.

    Of course, Arai is a big believer in the two-hit protocol for both reasons, as they beleive two hits can be important for a helmet to sustain.

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  21. #221
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Yes, but Arai also has data from the racing environment. SNELL has Zero. So, which one is better science. ONLY controlled testing, or controlled testing COMBINED with data gathered from the environment in which the helmet will be used?

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  22. #222
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Originally posted by Paul_E_D
    Yes, but Arai also has data from the racing environment. SNELL has Zero. So, which one is better science. ONLY controlled testing, or controlled testing COMBINED with data gathered from the environment in which the helmet will be used?
    Well, I guess Arai needs more guys to die on the track to get more data, hah?

    Hey, let's make that the issue. HOw many guys have died in racing events wearing Arai helmets? Anybody want to bets it's more than any other manufacturer out there? Hell, we can jsut include the local tracks, how bout that?

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  23. #223
    Super Moderator beet's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hessogood
    volvo's and VW's are safer then benzes and beamers.
    what a cage

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  24. #224
    Lifer
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Look at the bright side... we are arguing over which SNELL rated full faced helmets are safest.

    It could be a lot worse, we could be arguing over whether helmets are worthwhile at all like so much of the motorcycle community.

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  25. #225
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    No more HJC helmets at LRRS

    Are you suggesting that Arai does not or would not share relevant safety data from the racetrack with the SNELL foundation? Because that's an awful big statement to make. I wonder if a spokesperson from Arai would back you up on that one. My guess is no, that Arai is not witholding any information that could potentially save lives. After all, this is people's lives we're talking about here, it's not about the money.

    In fact, I would be quite interested to hear what Arai, or any other top tier manufacturer had to say about this issue. Would they go on record as saying that a properly fitting Arai helmet with a SNELL certification is any safer than a properly fitting helmet from brand XXX with a SNELL certification, backing this up with some empirical data? With all this data that they supposedly have collected and analyzed over the years, you would think that they could come up with pretty damning evidence that their helmets were demonstrably safer than the competition, beyond what SNELL certification tests to. If such a claim could be made.

    Allan, you seem to have a good relationship with Arai, perhaps you can convince them to share this data with us? If what Paul says is true and Arai actually has additional data and testing beyond what SNELL performs that show Arai helmets to be superior in safety construction over an HJC helmet (on the racetrack, or otherwise), I'll throw my AC-10 in the trash and drive down to Motomarket to purchase an Arai from you.

    Originally posted by Paul_E_D
    Yes, but Arai also has data from the racing environment. SNELL has Zero. So, which one is better science. ONLY controlled testing, or controlled testing COMBINED with data gathered from the environment in which the helmet will be used?

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

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