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Kramer comes to lrrs

  1. #51
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs


    Quote Originally Posted by JettaJayGLS View Post
    That doesn't sound so bad to be honest. I'm not in the market, but I can understand why some would be.
    I'm not either, bud. What is actually attainable for me is doing a F450 build, I'm fascinated with those things. You can hodge-podge them together or go to 450GP.com for a complete kit, just add dirt bike. That kit is about 6,000 euros (after adding the upgraded suspension options and some spares) and from the research I've done it doesn't look you can really save a ton of money by building it piece-wise. I'm not at a point where I can get back to racing right now from a time perspective, but I do want a really fucking cool track bike for track days.

    Sorry, not to derail the topic entirely...I just really like this whole concept. Whether it's a nicely engineered road racer from Kramer, or a nicely packaged kit from 450GP, a big single weighing in at 250-275 pounds strikes me as being a ton of fun.

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  2. #52
    Member MUZ720's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Loved my Single Days......

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  3. #53
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Sorry, not to derail the topic entirely...I just really like this whole concept. Whether it's a nicely engineered road racer from Kramer, or a nicely packaged kit from 450GP, a big single weighing in at 250-275 pounds strikes me as being a ton of fun.
    I actually entirely agree with you here.. which feels really weird.
    The commodity bits from a manufacturers' catalog help a lot.
    I'd rather buy/build something like this than build up a first rate R6 program any day.

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  4. #54
    Fast is contagious JettaJayGLS's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    I dunno...I've been loving my 600 the past couple of years for track day use. I ride it, put it away, repeat. I'm glad that my days of checking and actually having to adjust valves after every weekend is done with. I also would run maybe 1 track day a year and was too afraid to even add a GT race to a 4 sprint race weekend on a 450. I also did this my first year out of college on a shoe string budget...I couldn't even comprehend having a second bike.

    I'm kind of the opposite of you. For a race bike, I want something small, nifty, unique, and cool as all hell. For a track day bike, I want the 600 and the power. I'm also not the track day rider that goes out at 100% every session.

    Don't get me wrong. I adore the cool little bike. I think we both agree on that. Just disagree on use.

    And to comment on the 450gp kits. I recall those a while back. I thought they didn't have the geometry figured out since they re-use the dirtbike frames.

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    Last edited by JettaJayGLS; 11-14-17 at 10:33 AM.
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  5. #55
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    There are absolutely geo issues with the F450 bikes, but the idea was they would race together as a class and not against other machines so sharing a handicap wouldn't be a deal breaker. Mixed in with other machines just turns them into even more expensive, worse performing motards. There is one running around LRRS with yellow plates IIRC, looks gorgeous.

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  6. #56
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    There are absolutely geo issues with the F450 bikes, but the idea was they would race together as a class and not against other machines so sharing a handicap wouldn't be a deal breaker. Mixed in with other machines just turns them into even more expensive, worse performing motards. There is one running around LRRS with yellow plates IIRC, looks gorgeous.
    Wouldn't you still have engine reliability issues? No welded and balanced crank? 690 seems like a much more reliable platform... Especially with the motor mods done already.

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    Last edited by csmutty; 11-14-17 at 11:17 AM.
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  7. #57
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Thing is absolutely legit. Had long wanted to build an LC4 into something like this, and psyched to see someone did it. A bargain for what's involved.

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  8. #58
    Where is my fast? GixerJockey's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Philkinson View Post
    Can it be financed? ..... Kramer comes to lrrs

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    Didn't research, but highly doubtful. No VIN to make a finance company comfortable giving the loan. No VIN = difficult, to impossible, to track should the owner default and the finance company need to track it down, or verify its the correct bike upon repo.

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  9. #59
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    It means you do it as an unsecured loan instead of secured. If you've got a good credit score and reputation with the bank (Smaller banks / CUs work better for this) the rate won't be horrible. Alternatively you do it as a home equity loan and secure it against your house if you've got equity built up, lower rate and longer terms available. In both cases you're talking about something that you can end up leaving the remains of in the dumpster at the track on it's first day with no insurance backup so...

    WOULD you want to finance it in the first place?

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  10. #60
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Regarding the geometry issues on the F450 bikes, it seems that RaceTech has that bit sorted out(?) So the problem with installing a sport bike front end is the forks are too short leading to a flat swing arm and not enough anti squat. RaceTech solves this by using stock dirt bike forks, shortening them internally, new fork bottoms, and a different set of triple clamps. See Here.

    Now the issue as I see it here, assuming the above does indeed sort out geometry, is you end up spending a decent amount more to actually build the right bike. IMO the packaging that 450GP does is nice, the bodywork looks beautiful. If I were to actually look into doing this, I would purchase a complete bodywork package with all their hardware and add in their rearsets and gauges. Then do suspension through RaceTech, get a set of Marchesini (or similar) wheels, and run a traditional supermoto brake setup that jives with the fork bottoms RaceTech adds.

    So...
    450GP Parts: $2629.23
    Wheels: $2500
    Brakes:$1500
    RaceTech Suspension: $3074.94
    Misc Items (clip ons, chain and sprockets, shipping): $1000
    Grand Total: $10,704.17 plus the cost of a donor bike

    Now any decent used dirt bike is going to run $3-4k, so at this point we're talking almost $15 grand to put this together properly. Add into that the motor work that any MX bike will require to still be questionably reliable. I may have managed to completely talk myself out of this idea besides the romantic idea that it's just really fucking cool....and it absolutely is really fucking cool. It certainly starts making the Kramer pricing seem an awful lot more appealing.

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    Last edited by loudbeard; 11-14-17 at 11:34 AM.
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  11. #61
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    I talked myself out of the kramer and you're talking me back into it. Lol

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  12. #62
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Also keep in mind that the F450 build Ive specd is very much in line with the S model Kramer...which retails at $15,900.


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  13. #63
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Regarding the geometry issues on the F450 bikes, it seems that RaceTech has that bit sorted out(?) So the problem with installing a sport bike front end is the forks are too short leading to a flat swing arm and not enough anti squat. RaceTech solves this by using stock dirt bike forks, shortening them internally, new fork bottoms, and a different set of triple clamps. See Here.
    Racetech has an expensive theory, you still end up with the back of the bike unhappy from the front being shortened Consider it a polished bag of assholes vs unpolished if you go for a straight sportbike front end. Ask me how much of a difference 15mm makes in the back on a dirty bike... At similar cost the Kramer should run circles around the F450 if they got their setup right.

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  14. #64
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    15mm how? Where and what measurement out back?

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  15. #65
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    15mm ride height difference in back, axle to muffler mounting bolt.

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  16. #66
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I talked myself out of the kramer and you're talking me back into it. Lol

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  17. #67
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Can get a NIB NSF250R to your door for $15k.

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  18. #68
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by scottieducati View Post
    Can get a NIB NSF250R to your door for $15k.
    Not really in the same league. I love the nsf chassis, but the motor is a dog. I know it's supposed to be, but the kramer is much more exciting to me.

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  19. #69
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    How does the 690 motor compare to Hondas Big Red Pig (650) or Yamaha's 660?

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  20. #70
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    How does the 690 motor compare to Hondas Big Red Pig (650) or Yamaha's 660?
    Are you kidding???

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  21. #71
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    The KTM motor compares with a built SV, not those ancient dogs.

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  22. #72
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Are you kidding???
    This is going to sound shocking, but I have done approximately zero research on big single thumpers outside of KTM RFS motors. So not kidding, I've no idea where the others stack on weight, output and reliability when pressed into road racing service, but I do remember the BRP being used in TZ250 chassis before, and the MZ Skorpions being popular at one time hence my curiosity.

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  23. #73
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Yes, this bike redefines the supersingle category. Previous motors were either mx450s built into oblivion, or lead weights like the Yamaha660. This motor is reliable at 75-80rwhp. at 275lbs, the bike compares favorably with a TZ250.

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  24. #74
    no can kneedown feralchimp's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    I hope they're still making these in the event that I'm still physically able to ride at the age when I'll be able to afford one.

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  25. #75
    Where is my fast? GixerJockey's Avatar
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    Re: Kramer comes to lrrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Are you kidding???
    It's Josh... you already know he isn't kidding.

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