LRRS Class Structure/bike set-up

[Dave603]

Ok rookie questions here and I am sure someone else has asked them before.. so sorry in advance! I've been reading the LRRS rule book and trying to figure out what is legal and what is not for a 2000 SV650 super bike build and the more I read the more I am confused.

So specifically I am wondering if doing the gsxr 600 front fork swap is legal for super bike or if that would put it into the grand prix territory... Section 19.26.1.10 states that disc brake rotors must be "same size as original equipment". Now as far as the forks go I don't see anything in section 20.2 saying that changing the forks is not legal. But it does say that everything has to be in compliance of section 19. Now being that the rotors, calipers, and wheels for the swap would be original equipment to the forks being installed does that give it a loop hole to make it legal or do you still have to run with the sv650 oem calipers and rotors? Not sure how you could do that..?

Also section 19.26.4 states that "Intake and exhaust systems must be standard equipment and can not be modified" yet I've seen race set ups with aftermarket exhaust pipes (which to me is not "standard" equipment) or do these rules mean modifying above and beyond what you would purchase for an "aftermarket oem replacement"? Also in this section do they consider the carbs as part of the intake system meaning you can't swap out for flatslides?

Thanks for any help anyone can give I know most of you don't want to give out your winning secrets but any other tips you can give to help along this project would be appreciated!

[Kurlon]

I think you're confusing Production Class rules with Superbike rules. For Superbike, a fork swap is perfectly legal, even if it runs different sized rotors and calipers.

When I get to work I'll pull up the book to try and find exactly what's confusing you.

[jasnmar]

What's confusing him is the general note in the superbike rules that say machines must comply with section 19.

Edit: Specific note in superbike rules is 20.2.1:

All machines must meet the equipment standards of Section 19, as well as the following:

Section 19 includes rules for Production bikes.

Basically you need to comply with section 19 "except" all of the production rules. In the 2013 rule book that's 19.26.1 and all children. As far as I know (and I don't race, so could be completely off here) all the other stuff under section 19 is fair game, but not 19.26.1. (I've never understood why production class is in section 19 and all the other classes are in section 20).

[Dave603]

What's confusing him is the general note in the superbike rules that say machines must comply with section 19.

Edit: Specific note in superbike rules is 20.2.1:

Section 19 includes rules for Production bikes.

Basically you need to comply with section 19 "except" all of the production rules. In the 2013 rule book that's 19.26.1 and all children. As far as I know (and I don't race, so could be completely off here) all the other stuff under section 19 is fair game, but not 19.26.1. (I've never understood why production class is in section 19 and all the other classes are in section 20).

Ok yeah that was exactly the wording that was confusing me I see now how its a separate sub section. Thanks!

So that still leaves questions about the engine cans and can'ts. The way I comprehend the wording for modifications means there wouldn't really be much of difference or any at all between a super sport motor and a super bike motor?

[The Snowman]

There are a dozen guys who run GSXR front ends in SB. I don't think they'll care one way or the other.

[Kurlon]

In superbike about the only engine limitations you have:
1) Must start as a production motor
2) Must not start life with a larger displacement than the class allows, aka no down-sizing to run a lower class
3) Must not exceed class displacement limits

Have fun from there.

[MarkMarine]

Ok rookie questions here and I am sure someone else has asked them before.. so sorry in advance! I've been reading the LRRS rule book and trying to figure out what is legal and what is not for a 2000 SV650 super bike build and the more I read the more I am confused.

So specifically I am wondering if doing the gsxr 600 front fork swap is legal for super bike or if that would put it into the grand prix territory... Section 19.26.1.10 states that disc brake rotors must be "same size as original equipment". Now as far as the forks go I don't see anything in section 20.2 saying that changing the forks is not legal. But it does say that everything has to be in compliance of section 19. Now being that the rotors, calipers, and wheels for the swap would be original equipment to the forks being installed does that give it a loop hole to make it legal or do you still have to run with the sv650 oem calipers and rotors? Not sure how you could do that..?

Also section 19.26.4 states that "Intake and exhaust systems must be standard equipment and can not be modified" yet I've seen race set ups with aftermarket exhaust pipes (which to me is not "standard" equipment) or do these rules mean modifying above and beyond what you would purchase for an "aftermarket oem replacement"? Also in this section do they consider the carbs as part of the intake system meaning you can't swap out for flatslides?

Thanks for any help anyone can give I know most of you don't want to give out your winning secrets but any other tips you can give to help along this project would be appreciated!

Or we could just answer his question:
A 2000 super bike SV can run:
GTL
LWSB
LWGP
any higher displacement class appropriate:
Like MWSB, MWGP, HWSB, etc.

The only thing you can't run with a super bike build is the production or Supersport rules races.

[OreoGaborio]

For someone who's just getting into racing, I would suggest just sticking with LWSS rules. Leave the bike pretty much alone. Just do the basics. Learn the track, learn the sport, learn the ropes. Then decide if you really wanna dump all that money into a new front end and build up your motor.

IMO, the biggest difference between a well put together LWSS SV and a well put together LWSB SV is just the motor... and that can cost an awful lot.

[nhbubba]

What do they do to the SV motor?

I have no idea if mine is 'SS' or 'SB'. I am pretty sure it is not 'SB' given what I paid. But it'd be nice to know..

[The Snowman]

What do they do to the SV motor?

What don't they do to it? Bore out the cylinders, crank, valves & springs, cams, head gasket.

If it's bored out more than 1mm over or has head work done, it's not SS legal.

[OreoGaborio]

What do they do to the SV motor?

Throw 3-5 grand at it.


Some head work is legal, Chuck.

[GixerJockey]

IMO, the biggest difference between a well put together LWSS SV and a well put together LWSB SV is just the motor... and that can cost an awful lot.

Especially after it ventilates it's cases at redline...

[MarkMarine]

Original equipment head, valves,
and cams must remain as produced,
with the exception of machining the
gasket surface of the cylinder head.

Basically a supersport build is degree stock cams, thin head gasket and deck the head for some boosted compression, MAYBE go 1mm over on the cylinders and pistons. And then whatever magic the engine builder keeps secret.

But if I were starting out, I'd just run what I've got for a motor. From what Eric has told me at Loudon, a motor is worth about 1 second a lap. Suspension on the other hand, on an SV is basically required. The OEM damper rod is woefully inadequate, with damping that actually goes the opposite way from where you want it to go:

http://racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML

So I'd put money into getting that sorted out, stat. Emulators, or if you want to throw money at it some AK-20s. and a penske or ohlins or comparable rear shock. I prefer penske because you can call Mike Himmelsbach. After that, just get good crash protection for your body and the bike, lots of spares, and then save your money for all the track time you can get.

[The Snowman]

And as Pete has shown, more HP doesn't always make faster lap times.

He's running a SS spec built 2nd gen and turned a best lap of 1:16.5 with cartridge internal stock fork legs.

I run an 83 hp SB built motor with a GSXR front end and R6 calipers and only managed a 1:17.9 best lap (and ONLY ONE lap in the 17's EVER for me).

So, it's more about HOW you ride at first. As you get better, more power does help. This is like comparing Pete on his SS SV to Rick Doucette on his SB SV, who has run high 14's.

[OreoGaborio]

Me to Doucette ain't much of a comparison....... Don't matter what he's on, he's faster than I am.

[The Snowman]

Me to Doucette ain't much of a comparison....... Don't matter what he's on, he's faster than I am.

I seem to recall a LWSB win this season against Mr Doucette.

[Dave603]

Ok thanks everyone, that definitely clears a lot of questions I had! I'm not looking to dump a ton of money into the SV just looking at things I can do since Rookie/Novice rules follow super bike restrictions. Not sure how long I'll even stay novice because my lap times are already at the bump level but I guess time will tell haha. Definitely going to sort out the suspension first and foremost and then MAYBE some motor changes. I already have a penske triple in the rear so only thing I don't have right now is the gsxr front which I think will be the best bang for my buck with Loudon being so small and bumpy!

[Kurlon]

If you run consistent times at the bump threshold, you'll be an Am for your next race weekend.

[OreoGaborio]

I seem to recall a LWSB win this season against Mr Doucette.

Yeah... When his motor dropped a jug

[tsorfas]

Don't do anything to the bike thinking novice competition

[brady]

Yeah... When his motor dropped a jug

yeah but the other bikes you beat didn't

[Rambunctous]

For someone who's just getting into racing, I would suggest just sticking with LWSS rules. Leave the bike pretty much alone. Just do the basics. Learn the track, learn the sport, learn the ropes. Then decide if you really wanna dump all that money into a new front end and build up your motor.

IMO, the biggest difference between a well put together LWSS SV and a well put together LWSB SV is just the motor... and that can cost an awful lot.

Good advice. I remember being told to do things in this order:
1. Personal Safety Equipment
2. Handling
3. Power

Of course I didn't listen. I got a cool sounding exhaust and a higher compression piston. I did not go even a tiny bit faster. Those oldtimers were right.

[Dave603]

Good advice. I remember being told to do things in this order:
1. Personal Safety Equipment
2. Handling
3. Power

Of course I didn't listen. I got a cool sounding exhaust and a higher compression piston. I did not go even a tiny bit faster. Those oldtimers were right.

Although I was never told this, it is pretty much what I am doing. I'm almost complete step 2. :-)

[Dave603]

Ok reviving an old thread.. it seems I thought I understood everything before and now getting myself confused again. The rules book is like trying to read the Bible with all the reading between the lines. Progress on my gen 1 Sv650 superbike build has gone REALLYYY well and I'm excited to see how she does this spring. I went with a complete gsxr swap front end and rear, finally (after much searching) found me a nice billet brembo m/c (not the cheapy forged.. the BILLET one that is used on gp bikes!) some r6 calipers, crg levers, pitbull damper, and working on acquiring fairings now (please Sav if you are reading this) So now I'm ready to look at the MOTOR!

Now I guess I'll just list out what I have in mind and if anyone see's something that would make it illegal for LWSB, or something I missed please let me know!

Bottom end - some custom machining to reduce windage losses and new bearings
Rods - Carillo H-beam or similar and new bearings
Pistons/cylinders - Not sure brand pistons yet/or CR but this is the area that creates the most confusion for me. What exactly can I do with bore? Can I go as big as the cylinders will allow and if doing so does it prevent me from increasing compression?
Heads - port/pollish, lap valves and check clearances, medium rise duration cams (im looking for more torque) adjustable gears, heavy duty springs, and maybe deck heads for compression if pistons/gasket isn't enough for what I want and of course some beefier studs
Carbs - Keihn 41 mm flatslides jetted for higher octane fuel and some sort of pods for filters still researching best set up here..
Exhaust - I got a couple different pipes that came with the bike one slip on and one yoshi full I believe, but I want to get over to a dyno and compare to the M4 and see how they all stack up. Obviously looks/brand loyalty doesn't matter here, I'd rather squeeze that last bit of juice out of the engine than look cool.

What ya'll think? All constructive/destructive criticism is appreciated!!

[Rada]

With the motor... Get it right and it will last several seasons and perform well.
Get it wrong and it might not make the first weekend...

Unless you have a bunch of experience building engines I suggest you get together with one of the local engine builders and work with them...
Souhegan Valley Motorsports has a good reputation. There are others..

If you have the time and Money there is always the Spears option.