NHMS Turn by Turn Journal

[CEO]

First off, PLEASE keep this thread on topic. This is a 100% track riding technique thread and we don't need off-topic bullshit in it. I'm hoping this thread will not only be helpful for me but also for others.

I keep a riding journal ( do you guys? ) like is suggested in Keith Code's books. After track days I always write/type down what I did, how it felt, what I want to work on next time, what goals I met and which I didn't, etc etc etc. So, I'll go through and say what I think about each turn and/or what I do, and ask questions or leave it open where I'm not sure. If something I say is a bad technique or method, please let me know. I will list some of my reference points as well.

I know there are probably a million opinions about lines and techniques for Loudon... but I am looking for just some general concensus on the turns of NHMS and what techniques people apply to them, sort of the 'finer points' of how to get into and out of turns in a speedy fashion. Besides the line, I am really curious about where people trailbrake and where they don't, where people get off the brakes and back on the gas, etc. If I'm way off base here I'm sorry... but I'm looking to hear what some more experienced folks do so I can have more confidence in trying different things.

I am slow and inexperienced... I really appreciate in advance anyone's input and constructive criticism.

If you don't want to read everything, maybe just pick a turn to read and give your input on it... still appreciated.





Turn 1: This is an entry speed corner. In general I roll off the throttle around the 4 board or a little bit before (I know I can brake later, need to start trying this) and 'pre-turn' towards the red box on the ground and get on the brakes hard while grabbing two downshifts. As I come off the nascar oval and arrive at the red box, I make my bar input to turn in and look through to the T2 cornerworker's station and trail off the brakes (should I trail all the way to the apex, or just long enough to get the bike turned in? I still don't have a good feel for how much braking can be done at various lean angles... and when the front tire goes, it pretty much just goes instantly, right? How do you work on this since you won't get much notice of working the front tire too much?) and then get a little positive throttle going on. Post-apex, I get on the gas a little bit more coming out, and this seems to help the bike transition to the right side.

Turn 1a: This corner is essentially just connecting the dots between 1 and 2, it's not really an entry speed or exit speed corner (right?). There is really no braking at all involved in this turn for me (for you guys too?). I try to navigate it in such a way as to set me up for turn 2 as best as possible. As I come out of turn 1, I am on the gas a little bit and there is a pavement crack runnning roughly parallel to the bike that I look for to make the transition to the right side just after crossing it. I throw my body to the other side of the bike while making a hard countersteer, the bike follows me over and I have a bit more throttle dialed in, turn 1a is a higher speed turn than 1 (yeah?). Then my head is turned sharply to the right as I look through 1a to the Lenox billboards/signs on the nascar wall. I try to stay very tight to the curbing and ride 1a out against the curbing in order to...

Turn 2: This is an exit speed corner and again I don't use brakes at all. You can view 1-1a-2 as one big chicane. I try to turn in hard and quick to get turning done pre-apex (I'm still not good at this.. I need to turn in a little later and harder for turn 2 but I don't recall having a good reference point for turn in... are there any good ones? besides the X obviously... I think there is a crack that runs across the track and I am turning in just after that). As I turn in I turn my head very sharply, probably about 60-70 degrees from the bike's line of travel, and look down the straight searching for the traffic lights that are up on the wall, I also look a bit at first for the end of the tires. There is the big pavement rectangle that I cross about a foot or two inside the corner of it at first and am getting on the gas a little bit already, then I try to put my wheels right on the pavement triangle at the apex and lift my knee up over the curbing if necessary. I often find myself a little wider and am dragging knee right on that triangle, I should probably tighten up a bit (yes?). Then, I am rolling on the throttle to power out post-apex. I am weighting the pegs to lessen the effects of the pavement transition up onto the nascar oval and am still hanging off like a monkey trying to conserve lean angle as I get on the gas more and more. The bike is standing up pretty well now and the increasing throttle is widening the exit line coming out. At the top of second gear (around 100ish if I recall) I usually am getting close to the wall, I grab an upshift and am pretty much looking straight at the chute for turn 3.

Turn 3: Coming off the straight, there is a big seam where the pavement changes off the nascar oval, and I want to roll off the throttle as I cross it but I usually roll off earlier, something I plan to stop. I get on the brakes just before the chute as well, which I also intend to stop doing. I've been braking less recently which is good... I just need to move my markers around. Anyways, at rolloff I slide my butt over and then get on the brakes and grab a downshift... at the last cone I make a hard countersteer, drop my torso, and trail off the brakes to the rumble strip (are you guys trailing into there or getting positive throttle pre-apex?). At the apex I am turning my head sharply to look up the hill at the cone at the apex of T4. Then are you guys getting on the gas right away? I find myself waiting a bit past the apex before I get on some positive throttle. I cross that pavement rectangle through the corner of it, then shortly after that corner I start rolling on the throttle. Weighting the pegs and hanging off over the bumps. Then...

Turn 4: I roll on a little harder as I hit the transition up the hill. I take a tight line to the apex of T4 sometimes nicking my knee on the curbing, but I often find myself a little wide of the apex. What do you guys do to stay tight to the apex? I think some of it is my fear of highsiding... but I look up the hill towards the flags as I'm rolling on the throttle and hanging off and forward to keep the bike happy. I grab an upshift and come over the hill roughly in the middle of the track (I have heard folks saying they are further to the right... should I be moving over there?). I look for the double cones and make a beeline straight for them.

Turn 5: Not a turn and is covered above.

Turn 6:Turn six to me is an exit speed corner, you are setting yourself up for a drive up the hill (although there is a big straight before it, so maybe it's not?) This is another place in the track where I am rolling off early and getting on the brakes early... I want to move my markers up here too. I crest the hill and shortly afterwards I roll off the gas, shift my butt over, and get on the brakes and grab a downshift... tsk tsk... but I have been braking less lately, just need to move my markers up and brake more. Continuing straight for the double cones about halfway between where the track starts to go upwards again and the double cones at the edge of the track I make a hard and quick (needs to be quicker and harder still I think) countersteer and drop my torso as I trail off the brakes (are you guys trailing into the apex here or getting on the gas right after turn in? I think in this turn you really need to get on it right after turn in to keep the bike settled when it gets to the transition up the hill...?). I am on positive throttle pre-apex and turn my head sharply to look up the hill to the cone in T7. At the apex I am rolling on the throttle and get on it a decent amount harder following where the pavement rises up after the apex. I stay hanging off and roll on the throttle more to widen the bike's line out towards the edge of the track.

Turn 7: Turn 7 basically connects the dots from 6 to 8. As I'm wide out on the track between 6 and 7, I stop rolling on and just keep positive throttle, often needing to tip in a little more (should this be happening?). I am looking through the T7 apex towards the first of the two T8 cones. I get my knee several feet off the T7 curbing. (Maybe I should get in tighter?).

Turn 8: Turn 8 to me can be considered a double-apex turn sortof, since you hit two cones and drift out in between (...?). As I come out of 7 on the gas I look through towards the treehouse and throw my body over to the other side of the bike while staying as forward as possible to keep the front settled down. As the bike is coming over I grab an unshift. I stay in very tight to the first cone of turn 8 while hanging off to the right and looking through towards the T9 cone and pushing back on the pegs to keep my body forward and weight on the front tire. My path tracks out a bit and brings me back in tight to the second cone near the dirt patch, and I try to avoid the ripples right after the second T8 cone as I stand the bike up and start tossing my body to the other side of the bike.

Turn 9: Once I started carrying some speed into it, turn 9 is probably my favorite turn on the track. Turn 9 is a double-apex entry speed turn that is blind and appears off-camber even though on the line I don't really think it is (yes?). After the second apex cone in T8 under the tree I am getting the bike straight up and down and looking forward to the T9 'apex' cone as I toss my body off to the left side of the bike and look down the hill while grabbing a downshift. From the T8 cone to a spot about 2 feet off the T9 cone I track a roughly straight line with my tires while applying light braking to unstabilize the front end. As I approach a spot about 10-15 feet before the T9 I turn my head sharply to the left and throw the bike in hard. I trail off the brakes pretty quickly as I am always nervous about making the front tire work too hard in here (how deep are you guys braking into this area?) I maintain roughly neutral throttle as the bike tracks out while scrubbing speed and pulls itself back in. As I come around 9 I am pulled into the second 'apex' of 9 right before the short wall in the grass on the left side.

Turn 10: Turn 10 is an exit speed turn. Once the second apex of nine is reached, I get on the gas a little bit to help the bike get flipped over and very quickly throw myself to the other side of the bike while countersteering hard and looking far out into the nascar oval. I get on the gas fairly hard right after turn in and try to stay tight to the airfence and the big pavement bump at the t10 apex. I weight the pegs and hang off pretty good here to deal with the bumps. Also, getting on the gas pre-apex seems to help the front tire float over the bumps a lot better. As I power out the bike tracks out toward the garages.

Turn 11: Turn 11 is still a place I want to carry more speed into... it also can be viewed as a double apex turn (yes?). There are two horizontal cracks across the track between 10 and 11. I am on the gas until the first, then at the first I am rolling off the throttle and switching my body from the right side of the bike to the left. At the second I am turning the bike in towards the first apex cone. Are you guys coming in hotter and trailbraking all the way through 11? Once I turn in I am roughly keeping neutral or slightly positive throttle which ends up tightening up the last portion of the turn. I am tight to the first cone, track out towards the second, and tighten up towards the curbing for the third. I often have to add a little lean angle after the middle cone (right side of the track)... what does this mean? I am also uncomfortable carrying a ton of lean over the little bumps on the inside line near the apex... do they bother you guys?

Turn 11a: There is a big change in the pavement color coming out of 11 and about shortly (~10ft?) after that I am lightly on the gas to help transition the bike as I throw myself over to the right. A lot of people take different lines through here but I take the very tight line on the inside of the dark pavement rectangle. I do often find myself worrying that I'll get a footpeg on the curb though so maybe I should try the line outside of that box?

Turn 12: After crossing the rectangle I give a little squirt of gas to help the bike flip over and throw myself to the left. I aim the bike right for the turtle shell in 12 because when I lean the bike over I end up just going around it instead. I am looking down the straight at the red strips on the nascar wall and getting on the gas while hanging off and forward. (oh, and for TTDs I am of course checking behind me to see if I'm holding anyone up )


I guess some of my main points are:

I want to accelerate longer into and brake later into turns 1, 3, 6, 11

I need to tip in quicker for 3 and 6, quicker and later for 2 and 10.

I want to know where are you guys trailbraking and how deep are you doing it, where do you get back on the gas, etc.

I want to know when you are getting back on the gas in a given turn, how do you smooth it out? Are you feathering the clutch? Upping your idle adjustment screw? Etc? Or is this something that isn't as big of a deal as I'm making it out to be?

Thanks.

[BMFR6]

wow, i didn't read the whole thing or even have time for an elaboarte response but.... you are almost right in your thinking of 1-2 as a chicane, better to think of it as 3 linked corners. a big difference you will see between the fastest and the slowest guys through that section is the way they seperate the corners. the faster guys have an exit to T1 and a turn in for 1A. the slower guys will slowly roll on after the apex of 1 and make a lazy flip for 1A. same scenario from 1A to 2. watch the fastest guys and you will see what i am talking about a little better. your goal should be to get the throttle to wide open in between the corners, you can't do that if you treat it like a chicane.

[CEO]

wow, i didn't read the whole thing or even have time for an elaboarte response but.... you are almost right in your thinking of 1-2 as a chicane, better to think of it as 3 linked corners. a big difference you will see between the fastest and the slowest guys through that section is the way they seperate the corners. the faster guys have an exit to T1 and a turn in for 1A. the slower guys will slowly roll on after the apex of 1 and make a lazy flip for 1A. same scenario from 1A to 2. watch the fastest guys and you will see what i am talking about a little better. your goal should be to get the throttle to wide open in between the corners, you can't do that if you treat it like a chicane.

Haha yes it's long... not really much extra work for me since I update it in a file on my computer after each track visit. Just thought I would share mine and see if anyone else does this and/or if people have tips or pointers.

Interesting about 1-1a-2... makes sense. I do try to get some gas on between 1 and 1a like I said above... but I don't quite get on it that hard. Probably that is due in part to me not being quite as good at right-handers as left still. But I guess when I say chicane it's more because I think if you fuck one up turn then the subsequent ones are pretty much toast, ya know? But what you said makes sense. I'll try to think of it that way from now on.

[BMFR6]

your correct, screw one up and you screw them all up. that's loudon. 6-10 is the same as well as 11 through 12. as far as working on going faster, these are the sections you want to perfect first and i would work on them in that order. getting through 3+4 as fast as possible may be fun, but the guy that can hold the throttle wide open from the apex at 6 to the entry of 9 will have faster lap times.

don't feel too bad about being better to the left than the right, 99.9% of everyone that rides Loudon frequently is in the same boat.

[Doc]

The only thing I can add is what I have been told.

I don't think you need a downshift into 9. Brake Later, throttle earlier.

I brake at like the 2 1/2 board but I run ULSB so I think our markers might be different.

Also sometimes a later apex works wonders in 2, 6, 9, 11... (I think)

But honestly... What do I know. My fastest lap was last year and it was a 1:23.

[scottieducati]

Doc we all know you well enough to know you don't know shit

Hehe...

Turn 1: Initiate a "pre-turn-in" at your number board, which lets you brake with the bike more upright before your second (and harder) turn in for the apex. This technique is taught at the Penguin Pro School. Then get on the gas after the apex between 1 and 1a.

Turn 1A: Entry from about 2/3 across the track (from the right) and take it tight, you want to be looking at the cones on the FAR right of T2 as you enter... this will bring your line tight around the apex and stay wide right setting up entry to T2.

Turn 2: Staying to the right lets you apex Turn 2, and you'll be surprised at how fast you can take this corner if you make a larger arc. E. Wood uses all the track from 1A, tight apex on 2 and nearly hits the wall coming out he's on the gas so hard.

Turn 3: I'm buggered.. never got this turn nailed... but was hearing Peter explain this turn as two turns. Turn HARD on your turn in for 3, and then look at the sandy patch by the wall on the outside of the turn and drive toward it (on the gas), make sure your ass is an inch off the seat so you don't get unsettled over the bump... then turn HARD again *before* you hit the transition, hit the transition on the gas and as you're picking the bike up, concentrating on the curbing on the inside (right) of T4.

Turn 6: Entry about 2/3 of the way across the track from the left... We should all know the "T" crack to aim for, minimize your downshifts into 6 and carry more speed, the "bowl" effect will scrub speed, but make sure you are again driving to the outside between 6 and 7 to make the entry into 7 as shallow of an arc as possible.

Turn 7: the really fast guys are INCREDIBLY close to the curb on the inside of 7, again using all the track from the top (far right) coming out of 6 to the inside curbing of 7, the slower guys are usually 2-3' to the right of the curb. This (like 1A although I didn't mention it) requires you to lift your knee up so you don't rip your leg off on the curb.

Turn 8: Drive out of 7 and be mid-way across the track and make sure you hug 8 fairly tight, as the outside is like the outside of 4 and off camber, it will catch you out if you are too far to the left... ask me how I know.

Turn 9: Entry to T9 is a STRAIGHT SHOT from the cone @ apex of Turn 8, to the cone lying down as you enter 9. Tap the brakes / grab a downshift or whatever you do for that and as you pass the cone lying down at the entry to turn 9, THEN toss the bike on the side to the left *hard*, again like 6 your speed will be scrubbed as you drift wide... and then aim for the curb on the left of the exit of turn 9... drive to it as you scrub speed

Turn 10: From the far left curb toss it over to 10... this is where it gets a bit up for debate, as you can take a tight line and stay inside as you exit, or drift wide... either way between 10 and 11 you have to find the right line for you and your suspension that will let you get on the gas as hard as possible as you barrel into 11.

Turn 11: Another corner (like 9) people mess up often.... as you enter turn 11 drive to the cones on the right, and flip in for the apex. A late apex will let you hug the left side of T11 before flipping over for 11A.

Turn 11A: From the far left, flip over and this will let you take a line around the shaved-strip of pavement in the chicane, at the cone flip it over and put your wheels just to the right of the "turtle" bump (or I've seen some take it inside of this bump!) and again a very slight late apex lets you get on the gas ASAP...

Turn 12: Make this as wide as possible and you'll learn how much room you have to open up the throttle... again the super fast guys exit 12 and nearly hit sliders against the wall as they drift wide under hard acceleration... absolutely incredible to watch. If you're entering the straight anywhere from mid-way to 2/3s across (from the left) you've got some work to do.

Of course, your experiences may vary!

[scottieducati]

Decent onboard vid from the STAR school... cool showing throttle application, braking points and speeds...

YouTube - Jason Pridmore's STAR School Onboard @ Loudon New Hampshire!

[Doc]

I don't know shit.

[Kitt]

you can tell the economy is down and unemployment rates are up when track day riders are writing 30 paragraph how-to's for us in the racer's section.

in seriousness, I skimmed through, and you are a bit off on a few things. Your best bet is to not try and correspond what you see to twist of the wrist, but instead get to the penguin classes, and find out what the fast guys are saying about it.... A turn can appear one way to a slower rider, and then be something totally different to a fast guy doing it right. It' all part of the learning process... I dropped 12 seconds a lap since I started last season, and the track is totally different than I was seeing it. The advanced penguin school is a good low cost way to get all this info down right.

[SVRACER01]

i need one of those on board telemetry things. i was thinking of putting a little red light somewhere in view of the camera to see when the brakes are applied.

T6 is there a way to not grab a downshift and carry that gear all the way to T9? this would give you more cornerspeed in T6 and not have to upshift in T7-8 and not run the risk of upsetting the bike.

[BMFR6]

i need one of those on board telemetry things. i was thinking of putting a little red light somewhere in view of the camera to see when the brakes are applied.

T6 is there a way to not grab a downshift and carry that gear all the way to T9? this would give you more cornerspeed in T6 and not have to upshift in T7-8 and not run the risk of upsetting the bike.

he brings up a good point as I still have not read the entire thing. what bike are you on and what is the gearing?? something me and Oxx may say would probably be different than Jamie may say

[SVRACER01]

i assume hes on an R6.

[Doc]

Oxx is a WEALTH of knowledge... even if you go all the way to Arizona!

[Trackday Guru]

he brings up a good point as I still have not read the entire thing. what bike are you on and what is the gearing?? something me and Oxx may say would probably be different than Jamie may say

This will vary depending on which bike you're riding. On my RR I am able to carry 4th gear from the flags in 5 and never touch the shifter again until downshifting for 11. An SV prolly doesn't the overrev to be able to do this. Gearing, shifting points, brake markers, turn in points.....it all changes depending on what size/type of bike you're riding.

I agree with Kitt. Get to Penguin right away and get you're head around what they show you. Do not pass go, don't collect the hunge....and don't listen to other people's "well I brake here, and I turn in here" advice.

Seems to me that you've taken the personal initiative to keep a journal, something I'm sure very few on the forum have done/currently do, so don't ruin your initiative by learning the mistakes of others....learn what works for you and the bike you're riding.

Remember that the lines you take on a 1000 cc bike will differ greatly from the lines you'll use on a 600, or 250, or 125.....or pit bike....or....

[butcher bergs]

Get to Penguin right away and get you're head around what they show you........learn what works for you and the bike you're riding.

[Trackday Guru]

wait for it....

[Trackday Guru]

WE HAVE A BELIEVER, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! WE HAVE ONE!
CAN I GET AN AMEN?

[CEO]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Scottie I'm pretty much in line with a lot of what you said... that was helpful, thanks. But in the pridmore video looks like he's not doing what you were saying about 1a... i.e. staying tight longer and then throwing it in hard late...?

In retrospect maybe I should have posted an amended version of what I actually keep... yes it's long but it helps me and was easier just to copy/paste it... I just wanted to know if I was way off on anything and had those several questions about trailbraking, getting on the gas, and some markers/reference points.

I also am still curious if any of you guys keep a track journal. It's helped me a lot and I think it's a valuable thing to do... but on the other hand maybe I'm missing the forest on account of the trees.

I'm on an 06 R6. About the gearing, I am going to gear the bike over the winter. Right now it's stock which is preposterously tall for Loudon. I can run almost the whole track minus the two straights in second gear but would run out of revs in a couple spots and bog a bit coming out of a few turns. With stock gearing if I really wanted to come out hard I would need to drop into first gear going into 3 and 12 which doesn't sound confidence inspiring.

In general the powerband being so high in the rpms requires some downshifts before turns in order to be able to drive out hard in my experience... but I think that will be alleviated if I change the gearing (also I don't come out on the throttle enough as it is, need to work on that). I figure I'll buy a 520 and drop 1 in the front and grab several rear sprockets. That's a winter mod for financial reasons though.

I am planning to take the penguin asap, hopefully going to fit it in this season but not sure if it's in the cards. Anyone want to loan me a sick day and a couple hundred bucks?

[butcher bergs]

In retrospect maybe I should have posted an amended version of what I actually keep... yes it's long but it helps me and was easier just to copy/paste it... I just wanted to know if I was way off on anything and had those several questions about trailbraking, getting on the gas, and some markers/reference points.

I think what you're asking can't quite be explained over the innerwebs. The thing is, what some people do might work for them but might make absolutely no sense to you.

For example, what would you say if I told you that I use about 4 actual reference points around NHMS? Going on your initial post, my lack of reference points likely won't work for you and I'd have no way to explain how to make that work for you.

Same thing with driving out of turns or trail braking....what works for some might not work for others. It's all about your personal preference at the end of the day.

As you turn more and more laps, your reference points will change, your drive out of the turns will change, your line will change all because you are likely getting faster in your own way.

[Honclfibr]

You seem to have a good handle on seeing the forest for the trees, just don't forget that you're riding a motorcycle.

Which is to say, I am impressed (and somewhat envious, reference points have never been my strong suit) of your ability to observe and visualize the track. But for me at least, a good part of getting faster on the track was learning to listen and react to what the bike is doing under me.

Perhaps this is compensating for the fact that, for me, the track moves by too quickly and blurry for my brain to process well defined reference points. So I compensate by listening to what the bike is doing and focus on that. YMMV. Probably the fast riders are good at both.

[Pittenger5]

I think what you're asking can't quite be explained over the innerwebs. The thing is, what some people do might work for them but might make absolutely no sense to you.

To emphasize this fact, even if it COULD be explained you just might not be able to do, for lack of experience, or balls or whatever you want to call it. Like when BJ or Dana pass me and I try to keep up, we're on identical bikes, guess what, they're 7-8 seconds faster than me, even if they told me EXACTLY what they're doing, I'm not going to be able to keep up. Its up to you to pick your points and work on them for how they work for YOU

[seth399]

quietly reads...

[RyanNicholson]

Ceo.... awesome that you're keeping such a detailed journal of the track. As important as having reference points is, keep in mind that when throwing down some hot laps its important to develop a rhythm that connects them all. When the green flag drops I know I'm racing based more on that rhythm than consciously thinking about individual ref points.

As for T1a - T2....I disagree with hanging far to the right after T1a to get a super late apex (as some have mentioned). If you look at a track map T2 is really a glorified U-turn, after you come onto the oval there is still a serious amount of turning to be done...hanging to far to the right does nothing but delay your chance to get on the gas. In a racing situation, hanging far to the right (since there is no major benefit) will open you up to having someone sneak on the inside of you and stealing the apex, with an equal drive out. I'm just to the right of mid-track coming into T2, this also lets you carry a bit more corner speed around 1A, which means you can get on the gas harder between 1 and 1A, etc, etc.

this was advice Eric gave me one day.

Also a bit of a trick that can help to get the bike to stand up on hard drives....steer INTO the corner. Think of it as the opposite of counter steering. I don't mean to force it but keeping a bit of pressure will help the bike up, especially in turns like 4.

[Crash Dummy Denno]

Also a bit of a trick that can help to get the bike to stand up on hard drives....steer INTO the corner. Think of it as the opposite of counter steering. I don't mean to force it but keeping a bit of pressure will help the bike up, especially in turns like 4.

[CEO]

As you turn more and more laps, your reference points will change, your drive out of the turns will change, your line will change all because you are likely getting faster in your own way.

Definitely... you should have read this thing about 8 trackdays ago

You've got a good point there about it being personal... guess I just wanted to see if there were places where I'm doing something very wrong.

Which is to say, I am impressed (and somewhat envious, reference points have never been my strong suit) of your ability to observe and visualize the track. But for me at least, a good part of getting faster on the track was learning to listen and react to what the bike is doing under me.

Perhaps this is compensating for the fact that, for me, the track moves by too quickly and blurry for my brain to process well defined reference points. So I compensate by listening to what the bike is doing and focus on that. YMMV. Probably the fast riders are good at both.

I think your strong suit that you mention there is probably my weak point... I still haven't developed a good 'feel' for traction and find myself only really learning it through 'oh shit' moments which then set me back.

And you're right that the fast guys I'm sure are doing both...

To emphasize this fact, even if it COULD be explained you just might not be able to do, for lack of experience, or balls or whatever you want to call it. Like when BJ or Dana pass me and I try to keep up, we're on identical bikes, guess what, they're 7-8 seconds faster than me, even if they told me EXACTLY what they're doing, I'm not going to be able to keep up. Its up to you to pick your points and work on them for how they work for YOU

Makes sense... again I know it's a personal thing... I guess my thoughts were that I might be way off on some of my markers and/or lines... and if so I could slow down a couple seconds and try new techniques and then add my speed back in. I know a lot of my time is lost on the brakes... I'm not good on the brakes yet, and powering out. My cornerspeed is often halfway decent from what I can tell, but obviously needs work as well...

Ceo.... awesome that you're keeping such a detailed journal of the track. As important as having reference points is, keep in mind that when throwing down some hot laps its important to develop a rhythm that connects them all. When the green flag drops I know I'm racing based more on that rhythm than consciously thinking about individual ref points.

As for T1a - T2....I disagree with hanging far to the right after T1a to get a super late apex (as some have mentioned). If you look at a track map T2 is really a glorified U-turn, after you come onto the oval there is still a serious amount of turning to be done...hanging to far to the right does nothing but delay your chance to get on the gas. In a racing situation, hanging far to the right (since there is no major benefit) will open you up to having someone sneak on the inside of you and stealing the apex, with an equal drive out. I'm just to the right of mid-track coming into T2, this also lets you carry a bit more corner speed around 1A, which means you can get on the gas harder between 1 and 1A, etc, etc.

this was advice Eric gave me one day.

Also a bit of a trick that can help to get the bike to stand up on hard drives....steer INTO the corner. Think of it as the opposite of counter steering. I don't mean to force it but keeping a bit of pressure will help the bike up, especially in turns like 4.

I see what you're saying about getting into a rhythm... but the only reason you can get into a rhythm and click off consistent fast laps is because at some point you developed all of your reference points and have now made them second nature... eh?

Point taken about T1a... I've always thought that the very late apex line might be fast but would always leave the door open in a competitive environment. It seems people have a lot of differing opinions about 2, a lot of folks I've heard saying to late apex the shit out of it to get most of your turning done and to be starting to stand the bike up right at the apex... you're saying someone pretty different though.

Can you elaborate a bit about what you mean by the opposite of countersteering? Are you saying as you drive out of a corner you're pulling the inside handlebar towards you?

Thanks Ryan