Questions/Comments about 2007 LRRS Fuel Rules

[McBiggity]

Yeah, I picked up on that a little while ago when i was reading everything over again. As long as VP stays true to their word about contingency I'm sure that'll make people happy... and considering the huge number of people that will be bitching them out if they don't, I think they'll keep their word.

Think I'll wait & see how things go before making any negative comments about this.

how often do Ex's get included in contingency?? not very often.
we'll see how it pans out.
I may be skipping the first weekend as is due to financial issues.

[mmracer37]

Think I'll wait & see how things go before making any negative comments about this.

Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!! You know, like Guinness

[oreo_n2]

this doesn't sound too bad.
i am curious... whats involved with fuel testing? at tech do they take a sample and shake in a CSI vial with some magic agent that glows red when the right stuff is in there? Or is it something more complicated that will ass... errr... i mean add significant time to a tech inspection?


maybe something like this would do a quick, thorough analysis
Daytona Sensors LLC - Twin Scan 88 Low Cost Scan Tool

[senecak19]

I have the same notions as Oreo. The 60-70% of us that run pump gas seem to be the ones that stand to lose something at this point. I can see not wanting to screw VP, but who keeps VP in business? We do. Furthermore, one of the original reasons behind this was to keep the cost of this sport reasonable. Their not saving anyone any money by forcing them to VP.

This is still puzzling to me. Why not just allow pump gas and be done with it? I'm guessing you could satisfy 3/4 of the complaints up here. Everytime I read these posts someones complaining about the logistics of having to purchase fuel or someone complaining about price?

This committee is so caught up in catching those few individuals trying to sneak race fuel in that their doing it at the expense of the rest of the individuals riding (95% of us). Maybe their asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to figure out how to test for standard ol' pump gas, why don't they search for a way to test for race fuel and leave the rest of us alone? In my opinion this seems to be a simpler approach.

[mmracer37]

I have the same notions as Oreo. The 60-70% of us that run pump gas seem to be the ones that stand to lose something at this point. I can see not wanting to screw VP, but who keeps VP in business? We do. Furthermore, one of the original reasons behind this was to keep the cost of this sport reasonable. Their not saving anyone any money by forcing them to VP.

This is still puzzling to me. Why not just allow pump gas and be done with it? I'm guessing you could satisfy 3/4 of the complaints up here. Everytime I read these posts someones complaining about the logistics of having to purchse fuel or someone complaining about price?

This committee is so caught up in catching those few individuals trying to sneak race fuel in that their doing it at the expense of the rest of the individuals riding (95% of us). Maybe their asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to figure out how to test for standard ol' pump gas, why don't they search for a way to test for race fuel and leave the rest of us alone? In my opinion this seems to be a simpler approach.

What exactly is the 60-70% going to lose?

[Awesome]

The fuel is listed on their site. But is not listed as reccomended for motorcycle racing or motorcross.



MS93™
Designed for lower compression engines in racing series that require a cost-effective controlled fuel. Spec Fuel for ASA, Pro Truck and Rmax Challenge.

• Color: Blue
• Motor Octane: 90
• R+M/2: 95
• Density: .760 at 60° F

[TheIglu]

1. Will the 93 generally cause non-highly modified bikes to run differently than pump gas? Should we do anything different with it jetting wise? (generally speaking, I'm thinking no)

2. Can we use regular gas cans to get fuel or do we need to buy barrels/drums/pails or special fuel jugs, etc? Do they have pumps or is the fuel just sold in pre-existing containers?

Looks like I'll be making a little fuel wagon for the pitbike

I am not going to get into the reasoning for why they did this.

I will say however that if VP can provide decent customer service (speed and hours mostly) then it looks like a pretty decent setup. I would spend the extra $.50 a gallon to not have to drive to the local gas station sometimes. This eliminates gas station runs mid-weekend and promises reasonably priced fuel at the track which I didn't think existed before. As long as it doesn't turn into a headache trying to get fuel then I can't see too many substantial downsides to this change.

End of rant.

[senecak19]

Mike... I see your point $0.04 is nothing to quiver over. I guess my response would be "time" and frustration. I think back to the frustration this organization caused me when neither your nor Peter could help. I wanted to jump through the window and strangle the B&^%$ on the other side for not receiving my pre-reg on her typewriter! I'm no rookie, but when I first started racing these little nuances pissed me off. You know something's bad when people start to create comments that stick around such as, "Your a rookie... better plan on missing your 1st practice". Logistics is my business. Its what keeps me employed and what gives me the ability to race... watching this organization is like watching a monkey fu**ing a football.

[senecak19]

I'll end it with this. I'm racing regardless. Having LRRS as the only show in town is better than having no show in town. I shouldn't complain knowing this... maybe I should leave it to those in a "real" struggle with these new terms.

[mmracer37]

VP is well aware of the amount of riders at NHIS. I'm "assuming" they will have adequate personnel at the truck to handle the volume. Let's not jump the gun and create things to worry about. It will all work out.

[senecak19]

I'm with ya... knocking on wood and praying all the way...

[gmdboston]

I have the same notions as Oreo. The 60-70% of us that run pump gas seem to be the ones that stand to lose something at this point. I can see not wanting to screw VP, but who keeps VP in business? We do. Furthermore, one of the original reasons behind this was to keep the cost of this sport reasonable. Their not saving anyone any money by forcing them to VP.

This is still puzzling to me. Why not just allow pump gas and be done with it? I'm guessing you could satisfy 3/4 of the complaints up here. Everytime I read these posts someones complaining about the logistics of having to purchse fuel or someone complaining about price?

This committee is so caught up in catching those few individuals trying to sneak race fuel in that their doing it at the expense of the rest of the individuals riding (95% of us). Maybe their asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to figure out how to test for standard ol' pump gas, why don't they search for a way to test for race fuel and leave the rest of us alone? In my opinion this seems to be a simpler approach.

You are absolutely wrong on all counts Kevin. The rule book is what creates fair and equitable racing. Any rule must fit two criteria: 1) It must be clearly defined. 2) It must be enforceable. Pump gas is simply not an option because it is not testable. Once a fuel is oxygenated, you can add just about anything, including weasel piss, and it's no longer detectable. To "suggest" that racers not run a fuel that gives a significant advantage is down right laughable. Good racers will use every advantage the rule book gives them and them some. It's like "suggesting" that no one use a 750 in the middle weight class. What if some one does? How will you enforce the rule? You can't penalize if there is no clear infraction. So with pump gas out what's the next best step? VP has created a new fuel to fill the void. MS 93 is inexpensive ($3.25 a gallon may be cheaper than pump gas if current trends continue) and no more toxic than pump, and very stable, read no need to drain the fuel systems every night and replace your valve train every year.

"The Committee" is not concerned with catching a few cheaters. They have to write fair and equitable rules for every one. By mandating a contingency program fuel costs will go down for many. No, the EX classes will not be ignored, you guys are paying for the fuel and will be eligible just like every one else.

[Evil_Weasel]

i know when the original rule change was proposed (with the SUNOC) two-strokes were exempt. is this still the case? i just didn't see any mention of it in the stickied thread.

[gmdboston]

i know when the original rule change was proposed (with the SUNOC) two-strokes were exempt. is this still the case? i just didn't see any mention of it in the stickied thread.

Yes they are.

[Paul_E_D]

I think 2 strokes are still prohibited from running oxygenated fuel, right?

Evil, C12 is what you want to run anyway. I'm assuming your bike is old enough that it was set-up to run leaded fuel. Though as it was a streetbike, perhaps I'm wrong.

[Kip]

I can't what to see the line going from the VP truck down thru the tunnel

So will they do random testing or only test if they smell something funny coming out of a bike? Be interested to see how the fuel is tested. Open the tank and smell ...... This one is OK next.

[gmdboston]

I can't what to see the line going from the VP truck down thru the tunnel

So will they do random testing or only test if they smell something funny coming out of a bike? Be interested to see how the fuel is tested. Open the tank and smell ...... This one is OK next.

You're going to drink it. If you fart it's oxygenated. If you just die, it's legal.

[Evil_Weasel]

I think 2 strokes are still prohibited from running oxygenated fuel, right?

Evil, C12 is what you want to run anyway. I'm assuming your bike is old enough that it was set-up to run leaded fuel. Though as it was a streetbike, perhaps I'm wrong.

i while i do run leaded gas (i'd love to run C12) all the notes i have show the bike set up to run oxygenated fuel. i made the mistake of running non oxygenated fuel the only weekend i had the bike at the track. the bike ran like crap, though there were larger factors at play with that.

anyways over the winter i rechecked my notes realized my gas error and fixed all the other issues. i was hopeing to start the season running a 110 octane, slightly oxygenated fuel from SUNOC. MO2X specifically. the local parts shop that helps me out with parts and fluids is also a SUNOCO dealer...thus i can get a nice discount.

what would i have to do to run C12, change jets and plugs? ignition timing? my engine is abit differant than an RS, but not that much.

sorry to ramble but i am quite concerned about my fuel an help would be GREATLY apreciated.

[s a x m a n]

just run what you planned on ... you are not affected

[gmdboston]

This just in from Eric:

Pre Orders are not needed for VP

I made a mistake on the original release. VP is fully prepared for the demand for the first weekend. They will have significant amount of fuel at Loudon to take care of everyone and no pre orders are necessary.

Also, some people are asking where they can buy MS93 at $3.25 before they get to the track. The answer is, you cannot. This price is way below wholesale price and just above VP's cost. VP needs racers to buy all fuel (in quantity) at the track. If they attempt to buy elsewhere they will pay what the local dealer sets for retail and related taxes that are normally incurred, resulting in a much higher price.

[OreoGaborio]

good to hear. See, this is the kinda thing they gotta confirm & post in BIIIG BOLD RED LETTERS at the head of every announcement.... they gotta lead off w/ the good news

[SVRACER01]

The rule book is what creates fair and equitable racing. Any rule must fit two criteria: 1) It must be clearly defined. 2) It must be enforceable.

this is the same rule book that has a bellypan rule that doesnt exist/enforced?

this has turned into a cluster fuck for sure. i guess ill just see how it goes. what happens when i show up on sunday and theres no more fuel (arguments sake)? i guess we will just see what happens. sounds like a huge PITA but hoping it wont be

[Paul_E_D]

i while i do run leaded gas (i'd love to run C12) all the notes i have show the bike set up to run oxygenated fuel. i made the mistake of running non oxygenated fuel the only weekend i had the bike at the track. the bike ran like crap, though there were larger factors at play with that.

anyways over the winter i rechecked my notes realized my gas error and fixed all the other issues. i was hopeing to start the season running a 110 octane, slightly oxygenated fuel from SUNOC. MO2X specifically. the local parts shop that helps me out with parts and fluids is also a SUNOCO dealer...thus i can get a nice discount.

what would i have to do to run C12, change jets and plugs? ignition timing? my engine is abit differant than an RS, but not that much.

sorry to ramble but i am quite concerned about my fuel an help would be GREATLY apreciated.

I've run oxygenated fuel once without changing jets, but yes, you would only need to find the right jetting for your set-up to work with C12. There is nothing else in set-up that would favor oxygenate.

Leaded bikes are set-up with a tighter squish and higher compression than unleaded. This is because leaded fuel resists detonation, so you can run things tighter. Again, there would be nothing other than a jet change for oxygenated fuels, and that's more due to octane.

higher octane fuels tolerate leaner set-ups as they resist detonation even further. I would find out what the octane of MO2X is, and compare that with C12. I'd guess you might try 3 jets fatter for C12. Doh! I see it's 110. That's the same as C12. Jetting should be the same.

BTW, you may find it makes MORE power. The octane is more appropriate, and the burn is better.

[13]

sounds like a huge PITA but hoping it wont be

That first weekend is going to be stupid busy. All I can do is cross my fingers. Seems like just another line to wait in.

[Evil_Weasel]

Thanks Paul. i'm gonna give the C12 a shot.

don't think i'll buy it at the track though seeing as i'm exempt anyways.... might as well avoid the lines. lol