To Race or Not To Race...

[Speed Demon 828]

Well said Mark!!!

[Degsy]

Thank you for that!

Sometimes there is a lot more to racing than just looking at lap times. A lot of the races I run have other racers running 10 to 20 seconds a lap slower than me. But most of the time they are very predictable and I know where to go by, and can be comfortably close while doing it.

Sometimes with all my expert knowledge (insert humble sarcasm here) I fuck up and mis-judge while overtaking. I had one racer come to my pits this year after a race and complain I chopped their front wheel in turn six. He was absolutely right and my split second decision didn't take him out, but sure upped his pucker factor. I apologized and agreed to take better care next time.

My point is, it's not necessarily all about the fast lap time. So much of it is being consistent and predictable.

I have to remember that while the switch in my brain says "I gotta win this fucking thing" when the green flag flies, a lot of people are out there racing to have fun and beat whoever they happen to be racing with. In their own comfort level.

I started racing instead of trackdays purely because it is on the weekends and I can't take time off during the week. The bug bit, though, and I can't go away!

Mark Dages 454

Agreed, but I think that at least lap times would be a better ballpark way of doing it, rather than the current "fill the requirements for races/index". predictible or not, there is more scope for danger when being lapped by two really fast guys/girls when you are 15 seconds out of their times. i have been the lapee plenty of times (mainly by Scotty G, Eric and Jeff) and I was only 5 or 6 seconds down on them. I was regularly passed on both sides at the same time. While it was fine (actually, kinda cool), at 3 times that lap time gap, it's gonna get real hairy, real quick.

[butcher bergs]

Mike, I'm not balking at the level of dedication of a given rider but as Derek pointed out, when you come up on a rider who's 10 or more seconds slower, it's not really that much fun putting trust in that rider when you go to pass them, even moreso in the Novice ranks.

If anyone cares to notice how the larger racing organzations run, you'll see that there is a cut off based on a maximum laptime. I strongly feel this would be beneficial from the stand point of safety for LRRS, and for the NV ranks, seeing how there isn't much by means of escaping if things got dicey during a pass.

[zx1012r]

Agreed, but I think that at least lap times would be a better ballpark way of doing it, rather than the current "fill the requirements for races/index". predictible or not, there is more scope for danger when being lapped by two really fast guys/girls when you are 15 seconds out of their times. i have been the lapee plenty of times (mainly by Scotty G, Eric and Jeff) and I was only 5 or 6 seconds down on them. I was regularly passed on both sides at the same time. While it was fine (actually, kinda cool), at 3 times that lap time gap, it's gonna get real hairy, real quick.

Laptimes definately have a factor in class ranking. I have seen people get bumped "down" but I think it was a combination of times and race maturity.

Also the classes of "similiar" bikes and laptimes have changed somewhat. LWSP used to be high 1:20's for a win. Now the motard guys are doing 18's. But you still have experts and amatuers doing 30 somethings. Now that they put the MWPT in with LWSP we are running 17's. a possible 20 second differential for some riders. Which can be a little hairy racing as close as we do. Sometimes it forces the radically late pass on a slower rider to stuff the guy behind you.

I know the forces that be do look at the times, abilities, and "politeness" of the class when classifying riders. There is no set rule. But you make excellent points!

Mark Dages 454

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.508 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Good point again Mark. Race maturity comes into play of course.

[Pittenger5]

"I realised i was 2 quarts down on oil".

Phew, I was 2 quarts up on oil. I dont qualify for this statement!

[Pittenger5]

Ann is VERY predictable and holds her line great! The Dages are also nice people!

Never once did I have any issue passing her. Experts not necessarily all about speed, but whether you can hold your line well. I have less than zero issue with some of the slower ptwiners out there.

[PPS26]

mark you def becomming a top lightweight rider, i appricate all your advice thus far this season its helped me a ton

[6 Fingered Man]

I am running 8 to 15 seconds a lap faster then some of the novices i am racing against... Passing can get very scary but knowing that they are not that predictable you have to have the ability to back it off for a bit and pas in a safe spot if possible... If you are running that much faster than others its safe to say you have a decent lead built up and can afford to wait to stick the pass somewhere safe.

That being said i want the fuck out of NV.

[jcbell1007]

I am running 8 to 15 seconds a lap faster then some of the novices i am racing against... Passing can get very scary but knowing that they are not that predictable you have to have the ability to back it off for a bit and pas in a safe spot if possible... If you are running that much faster than others its safe to say you have a decent lead built up and can afford to wait to stick the pass somewhere safe.

That being said i want the fuck out of NV.

GTFO of NV man!!! I want a 1st place thing on my plaque.

[butcher bergs]

If you are running that much faster than others its safe to say you have a decent lead built up and can afford to wait to stick the pass somewhere safe.

This is assuming you are the only one in your race running that much faster than everyone else. Otherwise, I'm going to disagree based on my experiences. For example, I won a race by .1xx second due to one of the aforementioned slow riders. This was the result of a last second move by the leader to avoid being pinned up against the wall on the main straight. In that one race there were at least two bikes, myself and one other, gunning for 1st place and both running very similar lap times.

If you're trying to win at this racing thing, "waiting" for anything isn't much of an option especially when momentum is being affected.

[6 Fingered Man]

I was close though.

...and that's great. She came out of it unscathed and with a thirst for racing. I have seen many people take 1 race after being all pumped up about how great it is going to be and either be a clear danger to everyone on the track or dump the bike and never take to the track again.

I hope she gets more time under her belt and returns comfortable in the 20s and kicks the ass of some people who enter race after race but never took the time to learn how to ride fast.

I think the lesson learned from me is to not push for huge gains past your comfort level or it will not end well. You might pick up the time but at the cost of being able to focus on what is around you.

I think a racer with some serious self control can safley be on the track with not a lot of on track experience as long as their focus remains on holding a line, riding safe, being predictable, and being cognizant of what is around them. Not on laying down blistering lap times.

[zx1012r]

mark you def becomming a top lightweight rider, i appricate all your advice thus far this season its helped me a ton

Are you saying I'm a lightweight? I feel a little silly after laying on the ground a couple times last weekend, but pushing hard against Ricky is helping me find my limit!

You are taking seconds off your lap times this year! I have a hard time getting around a couple of you guys, i.e. you and Pete, so it's nice being able to tell you where I can eventually find your weaker part of the track and let you know so you can work on that.

One thing I will say about Ann. (And obviously I defend her because she is my Sis-in-law) She is the first person to be aware of her slower times, and is extra careful to be predictable. She will also poll her fellow racers and ask if she is "in the way". That awareness is what I mean by race maturity. If someone thought she was in the way and let her know, I know she would evaluate her skill level and decide if bumping down were a plus. However she and other riders would still be amatuers, and will still be out there with experts.

The scariest race of the weekend is Novice GTO, GTU, GTL. You can have dudes running teens on 600's in the same race as a brand new rider that day-running 2 minute laptimes! And the only predictability is that those brand new riders are not predictable!

See you in 2 days!

Mark Dages 454

[6 Fingered Man]

This is assuming you are the only one in your race running that much faster than everyone else. Otherwise, I'm going to disagree based on my experiences. For example, I won a race by .1xx second due to one of the aforementioned slow riders. This was the result of a last second move by the leader to avoid being pinned up against the wall on the main straight. In that one race there were at least two bikes, myself and one other, gunning for 1st place and both running very similar lap times.

If you're trying to win at this racing thing, "waiting" for anything isn't much of an option especially when momentum is being affected.

Very true, but in NV classes so far i have been the only guy running that much faster for most of my races. I have not yet had to pass someone going that much slower in a tight spot while battling with anyone. If i where backing off would not be my first option but i would before putting us in danger. Realizing that novice wins, as b.j. said "mean nothing" I would chose a safe risk of position over an unsafe pass.... I think.

[6 Fingered Man]

GTFO of NV man!!! I want a 1st place thing on my plaque.

After this weekend i am going to try to bump... But i think you should also

[butcher bergs]

I would chose a safe risk of position over an unsafe pass.... I think.

Sure until the heat of the moment comes.

While the NV wins really aren't much, as a new racer they are the first trophies at real racing (!!) and with that there is that much more haste to pass, IMO. Most races are 8 laps and on a short course such as Loudon, everyone has....ohhh call it 11 minutes.....to make up for mistakes, set up and execute passes, etc, which isn't a whole buncha time to really work on racer patience. So we take all of that and add 10, 15 and sometimes 20 seconds difference in lap times (consider closing speeds as well) and there becomes a certain question about how those very slow riders will react to being buzzed during a race by the more unforgiving riders ( ), hence recomended prior tracktime as well as a max allowed lap time limit for NV races. IMO, 5-7 seconds difference is fine but when it starts running upwards of 10....eeeesh! Rider needs more practice!

BTW; Pete brought up a great example about the method of passing at trackdays and the patience and planning it can take. It's a noteworthy post.

[Doc]

I think the lesson learned from me is to not push for huge gains past your comfort level or it will not end well. You might pick up the time but at the cost of being able to focus on what is around you.

I think a racer with some serious self control can safley be on the track with not a lot of on track experience as long as their focus remains on holding a line, riding safe, being predictable, and being cognizant of what is around them. Not on laying down blistering lap times.

Do YOU have self control?

[Rambunctous]

GTFO of NV man!!! I want a 1st place thing on my plaque.

I don't show up for two weekends and you are assuming I am gone.

[jcbell1007]

After this weekend i am going to try to bump... But i think you should also

I won't even come close to having enough races. this weekend, rd 4, will make 5 races. I can't register for more at this point because I can't afford it. I'm also going to miss July because of training.

[jcbell1007]

I don't show up for two weekends and you are assuming I am gone.

I don't even think we are in the same class. I'm running ULSB on a hawk and don't remember seeing you on the grid at all.

[6 Fingered Man]

Do YOU have self control?

I am gaining it fast.. Crashing out of a 20 second lead last week has me working on self control... But passing 600's on a hawk is so much fun.

[Rambunctous]

I don't even think we are in the same class. I'm running ULSB on a hawk and don't remember seeing you on the grid at all.

I guess we do not see each other. Bummer. I run LWGP and GTU. Maybe F40 this weekend. Come by 22N and say hi. I am Mike

[RyanNicholson]

Just my thoughts on closing speeds of lappers... I'd like to think that if someone is running times fast enough where this becomes a problem, that they have the common sense to realize its their responsibility to get by a lapper safely and not be a bonehead. This is most true for NV since that lapper is likely a new racer thats already shitting their pants, nevermind having their doors blown off. Once you hit AM/EX at least the lappers are more experienced and can hold a line pretty predictably.

For a while I thought there should be a minimum lap time to get a race license, it makes sense... sure. But I've kind of changed my mind on that. Moral of the story is, its club racing... personally I welcome anyone to race with virtually any skill level. Its an incredible sport and community and I would never want to turn anyone away from it just because they haven't learned the ways of the fast yet. I would just like to think that the more experienced racers on track with them have the "race maturity" to not ass pack them going into T3.

Closing speeds are inherently dangerous, but if you're not a bonehead passing a lapper can be done safely every time (Obviously with exceptions, it IS racing after all but you get my point). Set an example for the slower rider, don't bitch because they aren't as cool as you.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.508 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

So what about when you come out of 12 behind them and go to pass them along the wall and they drift, drift, drift all the way to within 1 foot of the wall
? This happens a lot.

[scottieducati]

I guess re: Ryan's post, while not a "minimum lap time" requirement as I don't agree with that, but I would tell any and all of my personal friends to do track days until they are consistently running sub 1:25-30 times and are able to maneuver through traffic with ease before they decide to go jump into racing.