race tire advice

[OreoGaborio]

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Lube.... Er, Glyde: Mozilla/5.0 440x240 Samsung SCH-U940 NetFront/3.4)

Agreed. Little bikes have higher corner speed and don't break the rear tire loose.

Keep telling yourself that.

What's wrong with that statement? Smaller bikes have much less chanve of breaking the rear loose. Less mass, less downforce, lower cog.

''Conditional'' blanket statement. Not true in all cases.

[Scottg22]

I am a firm believer that these days... A top level RACE DOT is just good as a Top Level Slick.

I have not bought a slick in 5 years (except for Daytona AMA Superbike Race last year). I run 100% Dunlop DOT's. I have done mid to high 11's on DOTS on my 600 and a 11.0 on my GSXR1000 with Dunlop DOT's in 2008 (.1 off the track record at the time).

Back in Polens Career, around 1990, a slick was absolutely better than a DOT. But IMO they are about equal now. I mean look at them. A DOT barely has a tread in it. But to each his own. Its what ever makes you feel you have the best package or setup underneath you.


Back on topic, Have you ever tried to put a set of Michelins back on the bike (as that is what Pete set it up for) ? It might be the diameter of the tires are alot different and not giving you that comfort-zone you are looking for.

I know nothing of the Bridgestone, but that might be an avenue to look into.

[Kitt]

I am a firm believer that these days... A top level RACE DOT is just good as a Top Level Slick.

I have not bought a slick in 5 years (except for Daytona AMA Superbike Race last year). I run 100% Dunlop DOT's. I have done mid to high 11's on DOTS on my 600 and a 11.0 on my GSXR1000 with Dunlop DOT's in 2008 (.1 off the track record at the time).

Back in Polens Career, around 1990, a slick was absolutely better than a DOT. But IMO they are about equal now. I mean look at them. A DOT barely has a tread in it. But to each his own. Its what ever makes you feel you have the best package or setup underneath you.


Back on topic, Have you ever tried to put a set of Michelins back on the bike (as that is what Pete set it up for) ? It might be the diameter of the tires are alot different and not giving you that comfort-zone you are looking for.

I know nothing of the Bridgestone, but that might be an avenue to look into.

Scott,

I have heard a few people saying that slicks gained them .5 or more, it could be "placebo effect" causing more confidence, or it could just help slower guys more than somebody at the bike's and physics limits? just a possibility.

I was hoping to try some slicks this year, not only to try and find a fraction of time, but one of my big complaints with pirelli, was that they would get cupped really bad after 1 day of 17's... and were a second sloer on sunday because of it (consistantly). So I figured, a tire with no tread, would last longer because the tire wouldn't cup like that (although I haven't gotten cupping on a dunlop since I bought take-offs and used them for 3 or 4 weekends my rookie season).

[seth399]

man this thread makes me have to vomit...besides a few posts :projectilevomit:

[Kitt]

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Lube.... Er, Glyde: Mozilla/5.0 440x240 Samsung SCH-U940 NetFront/3.4)



''Conditional'' blanket statement. Not true in all cases.

it was a blanket statement, yea... but true.

there's exceptions to everything, but seriously... a guy with low corner speed and 160+HP and who knows how much torque "snapping" the throttle out of a corner, vs. a fast corner speed, smooth, seasoned racer with > 100hp.

you pick one for most likely spin-up/highside

plus, between mike and pete, we should be able to 'tune' out any major issues, or be told to stop being a pussy and ride.

[Kitt]

man this thread makes me have to vomit...besides a few posts :projectilevomit:

the "when are knobbies too round" thread is in the dirty section, CURRENT owners of bikes with dot tires only please.

[seth399]

the "when are knobbies too round" thread is in the dirty section, CURRENT owners of bikes with dot tires only please.

you chopped me down!!

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Lube.... Er, Glyde: Mozilla/5.0 440x240 Samsung SCH-U940 NetFront/3.4)

Agreed. Little bikes have higher corner speed and don't break the rear tire loose.

Keep telling yourself that.

What's wrong with that statement? Smaller bikes have much less chanve of breaking the rear loose. Less mass, less downforce, lower cog.

''Conditional'' blanket statement. Not true in all cases.

Ok. There's always exceptions. Can we agree that a hawk is less prone to breaking the rear end free than a zx10R, which is what we are talking about?

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

I am a firm believer that these days... A top level RACE DOT is just good as a Top Level Slick.

I have not bought a slick in 5 years (except for Daytona AMA Superbike Race last year). I run 100% Dunlop DOT's. I have done mid to high 11's on DOTS on my 600 and a 11.0 on my GSXR1000 with Dunlop DOT's in 2008 (.1 off the track record at the time).

Back in Polens Career, around 1990, a slick was absolutely better than a DOT. But IMO they are about equal now. I mean look at them. A DOT barely has a tread in it. But to each his own. Its what ever makes you feel you have the best package or setup underneath you.


Back on topic, Have you ever tried to put a set of Michelins back on the bike (as that is what Pete set it up for) ? It might be the diameter of the tires are alot different and not giving you that comfort-zone you are looking for.

I know nothing of the Bridgestone, but that might be an avenue to look into.

Scott,

I have heard a few people saying that slicks gained them .5 or more, it could be "placebo effect" causing more confidence, or it could just help slower guys more than somebody at the bike's and physics limits? just a possibility.

I was hoping to try some slicks this year, not only to try and find a fraction of time, but one of my big complaints with pirelli, was that they would get cupped really bad after 1 day of 17's... and were a second sloer on sunday because of it (consistantly). So I figured, a tire with no tread, would last longer because the tire wouldn't cup like that (although I haven't gotten cupping on a dunlop since I bought take-offs and used them for 3 or 4 weekends my rookie season).

I'm a believer in the placebo effect also. The cupping on pirellis I believe is a setup issue. I just think that the pirellis need lots of setup but the reward is there once the setup is done. Just my opinion.

[Kitt]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)



I'm a believer in the placebo effect also. The cupping on pirellis I believe is a setup issue. I just think that the pirellis need lots of setup but the reward is there once the setup is done. Just my opinion.

i did go through a variety of coached (not from my ass) adjustments... I even tried different tire pressures at those settings.

whatever it is, I'm happy with my dunlop/placebo for now... even if it's just to drop times with confidence... once im there, maybe i can try to duplicate it on other tires. Right now, it's not a question of IS the 211 the best tire for loudon, it's IS the pricing worth the reward... for me, yes.

I will say I liked the pirellis better than lower end dunlops, as pirellis moved a LOT but it was predictable, and I had few issues keeping the rubber side down (I think my wet lowside in VIR was my only get-off). on the 208's or worse, it's like ICE, they are in or out... no predictable sliding... but alas, I didn't give them much of a chance and had oem suspension on the 208's

[The Magician]

don't think so much. race tires retain heat very well compared to street tires.. thats why a heat cycle is more damaging. Use what you want... whatever you can afford/is comfortable... and don't jumo in the bottomless pit of tire debate.

again... don't think so much. just get out and ride. the more you think, the more paranoid you become, and the slower you will go.

[Gecko]

[SIZE=1]I'm a believer in the placebo effect also. The cupping on pirellis I believe is a setup issue. I just think that the pirellis need lots of setup but the reward is there once the setup is done. Just my opinion.

i did go through a variety of coached (not from my ass) adjustments... I even tried different tire pressures at those settings.

whatever it is, I'm happy with my dunlop/placebo for now... even if it's just to drop times with confidence... once im there, maybe i can try to duplicate it on other tires. Right now, it's not a question of IS the 211 the best tire for loudon, it's IS the pricing worth the reward... for me, yes.

Our Team’s "involuntarily" nominated tire tester had the same experiences with the Pirellis. He went through a variety of coached adjustments, different tire pressures at various settings, and said prayers and offered sacrifices to the various traction gods. He tried and tried to get those things to work, but in the end we watched the poor bastard end up on his head twice. Don’t get me wrong, the rest of us were very happy with the Pirellis . . . as long as they were on his bike, since (in addition to ending up on his head) he was consistently slower than when he was on Dunlops. If it’s a Dunlop/placebo effect . . . and ignorance is bliss . . . then I’m glad I’ve been ignorant for the past 6+ years . . . .

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Oh I don't think there's a dunlop placebo effect. I'm talking about a slicks versus dots placebo.

[Kitt]

Our Team’s "involuntarily" nominated tire tester had the same experiences with the Pirellis. He went through a variety of coached adjustments, different tire pressures at various settings, and said prayers and offered sacrifices to the various traction gods. He tried and tried to get those things to work, but in the end we watched the poor bastard end up on his head twice. Don’t get me wrong, the rest of us were very happy with the Pirellis . . . as long as they were on his bike, since (in addition to ending up on his head) he was consistently slower than when he was on Dunlops. If it’s a Dunlop/placebo effect . . . and ignorance is bliss . . . then I’m glad I’ve been ignorant for the past 6+ years . . . .

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

I hope you guys are Right.

I am Going to try The Dunlop Kool-aid This season.

I liked Pirellis on the 600

I loved Pirellis On the SV

I hated and Feared Pirelli's on the Motard.

[scottieducati]

Setup issues with Pirelli revolve around it's core construction and carcass design. The softer carcass offers more traction over small imperfections of the track surface, which is great.... for all but (4?) corners at NHMS. If you get the bike set up to work well on the flat corners (1, 1A, 3 (entry), 6-9, 11), you'll have a firm suspension letting the tires do the work over the small bumps. The problem is when you hit the transitions (T2, T3/4, T10 and coming out of 12 the stiff suspension results in the tire compressing and "squishing" out.

Think of a spring (the tire acts like a spring), once compressed, it will want to de-compress, hence the "pogoing" effect that so many complain about when approaching the fast end of lap times.

You can dial this out, but in essence you NEED high and low speed adjustments, especially on the rear shock... and lots of setup time that many at the club level aren't willing to put in the effort for.

The tires have nothing to do with it from a grip perspective per-se, they are phenomenal tires. It's the fundamental construction / design of the carcass that requires a very well setup suspension for them to work at the kind of pace (sub-16's) though.

Fortunately for 2010... we might have an answer for those riders who love the traction and grip characteristics of the Pirelli tires but need a stiffer carcass that Loudon demands...

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

All the pressures and temps adjustments in the world won't help unless your suspension is right. Loudon is dominated by Pete and Mike and also by Dunlop. Thats where their experience lies. Almost all the bikes set up in any way at loudon are set up for dunlops because that's the historical status quo. I have nothing to gain from that statement as I'm not the pirelli guy any more. Michelins and pirellis sell just as well if not better in most other clubs. Its a loudon thing and it has nothing to do with the track. Pirellis take a lot of setup because they are so different. They are also a good bit lighter than other brands which makes a difference.

[scottieducati]

Dan,

I gotta say it, the front you were using on the 'tard worked awesome during the summer... but as you speculated (and we later confirmed) for cold temps, it just didn't work. Such is the growing pains learning new options.

I hope you guys are Right.

I am Going to try The Dunlop Kool-aid This season.

I liked Pirellis on the 600

I loved Pirellis On the SV

I hated and Feared Pirelli's on the Motard.

[OreoGaborio]

Ok. There's always exceptions. Can we agree that a hawk is less prone to breaking the rear end free than a zx10R, which is what we are talking about?

Agreed

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Oops. Scottie and I posting in tandem again. Lol

[Kitt]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Oops. Scottie and I posting in tandem again. Lol

posting isn't the only thing you do in tandem...

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

[SIZE=1]I'm a believer in the placebo effect also. The cupping on pirellis I believe is a setup issue. I just think that the pirellis need lots of setup but the reward is there once the setup is done. Just my opinion.

i did go through a variety of coached (not from my ass) adjustments... I even tried different tire pressures at those settings.

whatever it is, I'm happy with my dunlop/placebo for now... even if it's just to drop times with confidence... once im there, maybe i can try to duplicate it on other tires. Right now, it's not a question of IS the 211 the best tire for loudon, it's IS the pricing worth the reward... for me, yes.

Our Team’s "involuntarily" nominated tire tester had the same experiences with the Pirellis. He went through a variety of coached adjustments, different tire pressures at various settings, and said prayers and offered sacrifices to the various traction gods. He tried and tried to get those things to work, but in the end we watched the poor bastard end up on his head twice. Don’t get me wrong, the rest of us were very happy with the Pirellis . . . as long as they were on his bike, since (in addition to ending up on his head) he was consistently slower than when he was on Dunlops. If it’s a Dunlop/placebo effect . . . and ignorance is bliss . . . then I’m glad I’ve been ignorant for the past 6+ years . . . .

Care to share when and who?

[union]

Our Team’s "involuntarily" nominated tire tester had the same experiences with the Pirellis. He went through a variety of coached adjustments, different tire pressures at various settings, and said prayers and offered sacrifices to the various traction gods. He tried and tried to get those things to work, but in the end we watched the poor bastard end up on his head twice. Don’t get me wrong, the rest of us were very happy with the Pirellis . . . as long as they were on his bike, since (in addition to ending up on his head) he was consistently slower than when he was on Dunlops. If it’s a Dunlop/placebo effect . . . and ignorance is bliss . . . then I’m glad I’ve been ignorant for the past 6+ years . . . .

Dont forget you have the other tire tester in the garage next to you. Right now it looks like Ill still be riding Michelins.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

All the pressures and temps adjustments in the world won't help unless your suspension is right. Loudon is dominated by Pete and Mike and also by Dunlop. Thats where their experience lies. Almost all the bikes set up in any way at loudon are set up for dunlops because that's the historical status quo. I have nothing to gain from that statement as I'm not the pirelli guy any more. Michelins and pirellis sell just as well if not better in most other clubs. Its a loudon thing and it has nothing to do with the track. Pirellis take a lot of setup because they are so different. They are also a good bit lighter than other brands which makes a difference.

That isnt entirely true. Petes experience is with Dunlop. It is what he knows best. However Mike is a Michelin rider as am I right now. We have a ton of data on them and on my final weekend this past year I went faster on them then I ever did on Dunlop. Pete is open to Pirellis and Bridgestone (Zack ran those on the motard) but Im not ready to throw away my 2010 season trying to figure out tires again.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Don't get me wrong james. I'm saying their setup experience is towards dunlop setups. We got conflicting recommendations from pirelli and gmd. I don't know who is right, I just know we got some people running 2 or 3 seconds better than ever after working with them.

[BMFR6]

don't think so much. race tires retain heat very well compared to street tires.. thats why a heat cycle is more damaging. Use what you want... whatever you can afford/is comfortable... and don't jumo in the bottomless pit of tire debate.

again... don't think so much. just get out and ride. the more you think, the more paranoid you become, and the slower you will go.

thats a good point, when are we due for the winter heat cycle debate threads?