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Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

  1. #1
    Expert Novice "Dangerous" Dan K's Avatar
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    Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Paul and I got to talking about 125GP bikes in Roland's thread, so I started this to keep from threadjacking him too badly. If I ever move from my EX, that's the route I'd probably be most likely to take. That or an SV, but frankly I find the 125's cooler. I also have a friend who wants to start riding with the intention of racing at some point in the future. At 4'5" or so her ONLY option is a 125, so this would be good info for her.

    Reasons I think I'd like racing a 125:
    • TWO STROKE!!!
    • Light. Real light. They seem so flickable, and fun, because of that.
    • Cool looking.
    • I understand and can work on single cylinder 2 stroke engines.
    • They're momentum over everything else bikes, like the EX. Gotta be smooth and carry speed, no powering yourself out of mistakes.
    • They seem like they'd corner AWESOME.


    Downsides I can think of to racing a 125:
    • It may wear tires faster.
    • They eat brake pads for breakfast, lunch and dinner
    • Top ends will become somewhat regular rebuilds
    • Small classes
    • PITA starting, usually bump starting?
    • Insert downsides you can think of here?


    Questions:
    • Tire costs. I can get a season on my EX, doing 2 races/weekend and a track day or two. I'm guessing the 125 would burn them up faster? OTOH, they'd be cheaper. Where does this balance out? How often are they replaced on a 125?
    • An EX will go a season with nothing but a couple sets of brake pads a season, gas in the tank and air in the tires. The EX brake pads are $30. I understand 125’s eat pads. How often, and how much are replacements?
    • From what I understand the 125 will need little clutch bits on a very regular basis (every 4 starts), and clutch rebuilds more often (how often?) What should I expect here for cost/frequency of replacements?
    • How often should I expect to rebuild the top end? Is it usually just piston/ring, or are we talking about cylinders, etc?
    • I’m guessing go-fast goodies? The EX is PTwins, so they’re more or less stock, less suspension (which I bought mine with) and tires, which last roughly forever. What needs to be done for goodies to have a competitive 125? Is the stuff wearable, or just maintenance stuff (i.e. suspension, send to PK on off season) like the EX?.
    • WTF is the deal with getting these things running? Does it always require 2 people and 10 running starts? Can I at least get a kick starter or some shit? If the bump start is required, I assume that means any crash = end of your race & pushing it back to the pits?


    More or less, what I’m trying to figure out is how much more expensive it would be to race a 125GP than an EX.

    And the biggest surprise to me, apparently the 125’s crash well. The EX’s crash like dump trucks, I just got a “fragile” feeling from the 125’s. I guess I was wrong.

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    Last edited by "Dangerous" Dan K; 08-25-09 at 08:13 AM.

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    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Reason I dont want a 2stroke. Have you ever seen a 2stroke thats not on the track that is completely assembled?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    My favorite was you going through T2 with your eyes closed.

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    Expert Novice "Dangerous" Dan K's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittenger5 View Post
    Reason I dont want a 2stroke. Have you ever seen a 2stroke thats not on the track that is completely assembled?
    Yes, actually, I have. The guys a couple garages over from me, pretty often. Not a bad point though, they do seem to be apart a lot.

    You also reminded me of another reason to add to my "reasons I don't want" list... PITA bump-starting.

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    live to ride seth399's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    my short answer, no idea....but I do know you can't really compare cost of racing any other bike to an EX it seems ahah

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    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    1. You'll start out getting a season out of the slicks, but as you get into the teens, you might be replacing them more often. I ended getting 2 weekends plus trackdays out of a set. I did lots of practice laps at pace every race weekend (thurs/fri)

    2. I liked the stock pads best, and they are like 70 buck. I used a set every 2 weekends, but that was doing lots of laps in the 16-17 range. Some guys got a season out of the same pads.

    3.I spent a lot on my clutch trying to get better launches. It never really happened. Money wasted. Just rotate 3 new steels in every 4 starts and maintain the basket.

    4. Top end is every 300 miles religiously. New piston/ring/bearing/circlips. Occasionally new oring. The jugs last forever.

    5. There are few go fast goodies that con improve over the stock bike that is set up well. The manual has everything you need to know to build a nationally competitive bike. It is a tuning bible. read it, follow it, love it.

    Year end bottom end rebuilds are the killer. 600 plus for parts, then labor. It comes at a time when you're already broke from racing. It's really a nickel and dime kind of bike, but you CAN keep costs low if you stay stock and just follow the bible.

    Oh yeah, gas and oil costs are higher than average...

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    Expert Novice "Dangerous" Dan K's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    1. You'll start out getting a season out of the slicks, but as you get into the teens, you might be replacing them more often. I ended getting 2 weekends plus trackdays out of a set. I did lots of practice laps at pace every race weekend (thurs/fri)

    2. I liked the stock pads best, and they are like 70 buck. I used a set every 2 weekends, but that was doing lots of laps in the 16-17 range. Some guys got a season out of the same pads.

    3.I spent a lot on my clutch trying to get better launches. It never really happened. Money wasted. Just rotate 3 new steels in every 4 starts and maintain the basket.

    4. Top end is every 300 miles religiously. New piston/ring/bearing/circlips. Occasionally new oring. The jugs last forever.

    5. There are few go fast goodies that con improve over the stock bike that is set up well. The manual has everything you need to know to build a nationally competitive bike. It is a tuning bible. read it, follow it, love it.

    Year end bottom end rebuilds are the killer. 600 plus for parts, then labor. It comes at a time when you're already broke from racing. It's really a nickel and dime kind of bike, but you CAN keep costs low if you stay stock and just follow the bible.


    Oh yeah, gas and oil costs are higher than average...
    1) Teens? What are those? I just broke into the 29’s. The EX guys doing low 20’s go through a couple/few sets a season too. I don’t think anyone is doing teens on an EX this year. So basically, tire wear is about the same?

    2) Again, you’re speaking in times that are not even in my language. If some guys get a season, and some guys get 2 weekends, I’d say it’s just as often as the EX. Just $70/set instead of $30. Are those things dual rotor, btw? $70 would seem high for 2 pads, for 4 I could see.

    3) Clutch doesn’t sound too expensive. What’s a set of steels run for one of these, and how many are in the set?

    4) 300 miles? I figure w/ 4 practice session & 2 races/weekend (are there 2 good 125GP races?) we’re looking @ 75 miles/weekend. With 8 race weekends a season, that’s 614 miles or so. So basically a couple top ends a season. Not too bad, what’s the top end kit cost?

    5) Roger that.

    6) $600 in parts, plus I’ve got to learn to rebuild the bottom end? Ouch!

    Also, are these things running VP race fuel? They pre-mix?

    So far for add’l costs I’m seeing:
    Tires = wash
    Brakes = $40/set more. Figure 2 sets a season at my current pace, bound to increase as I get faster just like it would on the EX.
    Bottom end = $600 + know-how and time. Ouch.
    Clutch = $?
    Fuel = $?
    Oil = $?
    Top End Kit = $? x 2/season.

    Is the oil synthetic? Clearly it’s getting replaced every time you play with the clutch, which is every 4 starts.

    Also, there’s no slipping the clutch on these, right? Ride/shift like a regular motorcycle, just try to keep it on the pipe?

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    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    1. Yes, about the same
    2. single rotor
    3. don't remember 8 bucks a steel or so. 6 total.
    4.it was about a 90 buck at the time, now I think it's almost double. I did a lot of trackdays as well. 100 miles at a trackday meant I was doing topends every 2 weekends.

    The older bikes (pre 2000 or 02?) run C12 and premix (I used castor A747) This added 100 bucks per weekend roughly

    Newer bikes are set up for pump gas.

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    Expert Novice "Dangerous" Dan K's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    1. Yes, about the same
    2. single rotor
    3. don't remember 8 bucks a steel or so. 6 total.
    4.it was about a 90 buck at the time, now I think it's almost double. I did a lot of trackdays as well. 100 miles at a trackday meant I was doing topends every 2 weekends.

    The older bikes (pre 2000 or 02?) run C12 and premix (I used castor A747) This added 100 bucks per weekend roughly

    Newer bikes are set up for pump gas.
    Cool, thanks. Sounds like if I could get something new enough to run pump gas it wouldn't be TOO much worse than the EX. I'm good for a couple TD's a year, 3 at best, (only did 1 this year but hope to make more next) so even if I figure 3, max 4 top ends over the season...

    The bottom end thing is going to be a killer. And I'd want something that didn't require $100/weekend in gas, so the bike would have to be newer and cost more.

    Appreciate all the insight. If the time comes to move up from the EX I'll definitely be considering one. Right now I'm sticking with my cheap to run EX

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's


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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    he hasn't been around here much lately, but if you can track down Neal (silverdragon) he ran a 125 as well and might have some insight. he was quicker than you, but not even in the same time zone as paul. he might have some insight for you as well.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    On the track mileage thing... With one track day under it's belt (with Doc and Alex alternating riding the piss out of it in the Rain as instructors) and a bit more than a season of racing doing three to four races a weekend, with a few USCRA weekends added in, I racked up 890 miles.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    I was easily topping 1500 miles a season. at 100 miles a season, you could possibly get away with a bottom end every other year.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    I use slightly less than a can of VP for a weekend. That is for a 250 cc. The oil is cheaper than my (exploded engine) motard. Filter and 1 1/4 qt each weekend and have to change it and bringing it to the recycling building was a pain. Setting the valves in the tard was much more work than changing pistons on any GP bike. By the way GP bikes have dry clutdhes.

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  14. #14
    Expert Novice "Dangerous" Dan K's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Thanks for the links! I’ve got some reading to do! (And a few tickets to buy, just in case! Is RSC @ Loudon, or will I have to buy online?)

    Quote Originally Posted by BMFR6 View Post
    he hasn't been around here much lately, but if you can track down Neal (silverdragon) he ran a 125 as well and might have some insight. he was quicker than you, but not even in the same time zone as paul. he might have some insight for you as well.
    Sweet, thanks. I’ll look him up, if I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    On the track mileage thing... With one track day under it's belt (with Doc and Alex alternating riding the piss out of it in the Rain as instructors) and a bit more than a season of racing doing three to four races a weekend, with a few USCRA weekends added in, I racked up 890 miles.
    That sounds more likely for me. I don’t see doing more than 2 races/weekend, plus the 4 practices of course. Throw in a few TD’s and Friday practices, track time will probably equal that of your GS. Bike might be a bit faster, meaning slightly more miles, but I’d be shocked if I put over 1000 miles on in a season. I’d be surprised to hit 800, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I was easily topping 1500 miles a season. at 100 miles a season, you could possibly get away with a bottom end every other year.
    I assume you mean 1000? If so, cool!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    I use slightly less than a can of VP for a weekend. That is for a 250 cc. The oil is cheaper than my (exploded engine) motard. Filter and 1 1/4 qt each weekend and have to change it and bringing it to the recycling building was a pain. Setting the valves in the tard was much more work than changing pistons on any GP bike. By the way GP bikes have dry clutdhes.
    What’s a can of VP set you back? How many races & practices in your weekend? Do you run Fridays, or just Sat/Sun? Also, thanks for the dry clutch heads up. I had no idea.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    ...I should convert the katoom to a dry clutch... that would rock. I could get away with even lazier oil change intervals! Plus, with a vented cover it'd sound like a ducati, and who can argue with that?

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    Expert Novice "Dangerous" Dan K's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    ...I should convert the katoom to a dry clutch... that would rock. I could get away with even lazier oil change intervals! Plus, with a vented cover it'd sound like a ducati, and who can argue with that?
    Me. I hate that sound... sounds like something is seriously broken.

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    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Nope, Rs125s have a wet clutch!

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    live to ride seth399's Avatar
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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    dangerous dan, 5 gal. of vp is 50 bucks
    doubt you'd use 5 gallons in a weekend

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    $50 dollars a can. Rising Sun is at the track all weekend long. I just do 4 practices and 2 races. There are in Fall River BTW. I think one reason you see them apart is that you can do all the stuff that has to be done at the track. I bet that I could remove the motor, replace the crank, pistons, replace the motor, in 2-3 hours now that I did it once.

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    Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

    Dan what about doing a 450 super-single? The reliability and ease of riding of a 450 single in a 125 sized package.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Let me provide my opinions based on my limited experience as a track day rider and very new novice racer. The only other bike I have ridden is my EX250 (I imagine it must be just like an EX500, but with less power) so I don't have any "big bike" experience to shape my perspective on the 125.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post
    Reasons I think I'd like racing a 125:
    • I understand and can work on single cylinder 2 stroke engines.
    If you're already comfortable with working on a 2 stroke, you're already ahead of me! I'm learning as I go with mine but it is such an easy bike to work on that I'm really enjoying discovering how it works.

    I hate working on the EX now that I have the 125. On the 125, everything is simple, has a purpose and is designed to be easily maintained by the owner.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post

    • They're momentum over everything else bikes, like the EX. Gotta be smooth and carry speed, no powering yourself out of mistakes.
    When I was doing trackdays on the EX250, I never had a desire for riding a bigger bike. Learning to go faster with what I have is much more appealing than obtaining speed by buying horsepower. Don't get me wrong, when I first rode the 125 and experienced the infamous power band, I was grinning ear to ear!

    Many have said that you will learn a lot about riding on a 125.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post
    Downsides I can think of to racing a 125:
    • It may wear tires faster.
    • They eat brake pads for breakfast, lunch and dinner
    Like Paul said, this will depend a lot on how fast you are. So far, I have about half a dozen track days, penguin school and a couple of races on mine. The new slicks I put on when I got the bike still have plenty of rubber and I'm still on the same pads which had been used for a couple of races by the previous owner (expert).

    I not going to worry much about tire and brake wear until I'm in the 25's and lower range.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post

    • Top ends will become somewhat regular rebuilds
    The manual recommends every 500km (300miles) just like Paul strongly suggests. The top end is simple to do, it won't eat up much of your time. Cost might be a factor, but here's some advice I got from my bike's previous owner (47 years of expert level racing in Canada). Do check the top end regularly but only replace the parts that need replacing. Inspect the piston, ring and cylinder. Measure to make sure they are still within specs and if everything still looks ok, just replace the cheap parts (circ clip and o-rings).

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post

    • Small classes
    That is a down side, but help improve this by joining us! Looking at this season's results, I saw 3 competitors that registered for Novice 125GP. Now that I have experienced my first race weekend as a competitor, I can garantee I'll be there regularly!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post

    • PITA starting, usually bump starting?
    The 125 starts easily, once you get the hang of it, a few steps and she goes! If you do notice me taking a few tries to get mine going, it's that I'm still new to it. Remeber, the fact that you need to bump start means the machine is simpler. No starter, battery, etc that needs maintaining or adds unnecessary weight.

    I don't consider this a drawback.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post

    • From what I understand the 125 will need little clutch bits on a very regular basis (every 4 starts), and clutch rebuilds more often (how often?) What should I expect here for cost/frequency of replacements?
    Here's my take on it. Not replacing the clutch parts as often as Paul suggest is not going to leave me stranded on the grid. It might not allow me to get the optimum start, but as a novice, my lack of skill is slowing me down significantly more than the bike not being in pristine condition.

    Right now, I feel that spending money on track time will help me much more than keeping the bike in top shape. It's important I keep the bike in good shape so she doesn't blow up on me, but I need to strike a good balance that makes sense for my situation. I suspect as I get faster, keeping the bike in top shape will become more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dangerous" Dan K View Post

    • WTF is the deal with getting these things running? Does it always require 2 people and 10 running starts? Can I at least get a kick starter or some shit? If the bump start is required, I assume that means any crash = end of your race & pushing it back to the pits?
    When Paul took mine out for a spin a few weeks ago, he started pushing it out of the garage with a couple of running steps, hopped on and away he went! The thing is light, you don't need a second person pushing you. The only trick to starting it involves knowing when to crack the throttle and how much to do so. I'm still learning this so it sometimes takes me 2 or 3 tries to get going.

    At track days when I need to wait for a while at the end of hot pit, I often turn off the engine like everyone else. When it's my turn to pit out, I take a few steps, let out the clutch and she starts immediately as I keep going. It's almost like a hybrid that shuts down at stop lights!

    I haven't crashed at a race yet, but I don't see why you wouldn't be able to start right up and keep going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    1. You'll start out getting a season out of the slicks, but as you get into the teens, you might be replacing them more often. I ended getting 2 weekends plus trackdays out of a set. I did lots of practice laps at pace every race weekend (thurs/fri)

    2. I liked the stock pads best, and they are like 70 buck. I used a set every 2 weekends, but that was doing lots of laps in the 16-17 range. Some guys got a season out of the same pads.

    3.I spent a lot on my clutch trying to get better launches. It never really happened. Money wasted. Just rotate 3 new steels in every 4 starts and maintain the basket.

    4. Top end is every 300 miles religiously. New piston/ring/bearing/circlips. Occasionally new oring. The jugs last forever.

    5. There are few go fast goodies that con improve over the stock bike that is set up well. The manual has everything you need to know to build a nationally competitive bike. It is a tuning bible. read it, follow it, love it.

    Year end bottom end rebuilds are the killer. 600 plus for parts, then labor. It comes at a time when you're already broke from racing. It's really a nickel and dime kind of bike, but you CAN keep costs low if you stay stock and just follow the bible.

    Oh yeah, gas and oil costs are higher than average...
    Great advice Paul. I don't mean to contradict you in parts of my response, I'm just looking at ways to keep costs down, especially for a novice.

    I've heard from others as well that the bike is competitive stock and the manual should be followed like a bible.

    Oh yeah, being used to the EX250, which gave me over 50mpg ON THE TRACK, my fuel costs did go up with the 125. Two pails of C12 (total of 10 gallons) with corresponding amount of oil cost me $156 so $15.60/gallon (mixed). I haven't yet calculated the fuel economy on RS125 but I do have data to do so.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Nope, Rs125s have a wet clutch!
    Not a day goes by without learning something. BTW Tim(2) changes out his clutch between practices and races on his TZ. Saves the best for racing.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    $50 dollars a can. Rising Sun is at the track all weekend long. I just do 4 practices and 2 races. There are in Fall River BTW. I think one reason you see them apart is that you can do all the stuff that has to be done at the track. I bet that I could remove the motor, replace the crank, pistons, replace the motor, in 2-3 hours now that I did it once.
    Nice! That's about what I'd expect to do for races. What races do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by scottieducati View Post
    [SIZE=1] Dan what about doing a 450 super-single? The reliability and ease of riding of a 450 single in a 125 sized package.
    You’re kidding, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Not a day goes by without learning something. BTW Tim(2) changes out his clutch between practices and races on his TZ. Saves the best for racing.
    That’s a bitchin idea.

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    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by BMFR6 View Post
    ...if you can track down Neal (silverdragon) he ran a 125 as well and might have some insight.
    Neal and Tyler both instruct with TTD, have raced 125s and have helped me a lot at track days. Other 125 riders I have met at track days (including an expert champion!) have always been very helpful.

    I was supposed to go find where where all the GP bikes hang out at Loudon, but I was so busy on my first weekend that I never got around to it! (I'll go find you guys next time!) I do hear they are a great group as well.

    I've also hear great things about the USGPRU community. I sure hope I get to go race at a few of their events on the east coast once I build a bit more experience here.

    So getting a 125, you don't just get a great little race bike, you become member of a great racing community!

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Roland Arsenault
    LRRS and USCRA #763
    2012, 2013 and 2015 Big Fish Small Pond Champion
    "The 4 board is an upshift marker, not a brake marker"

  25. #25
    Banned Rambunctous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Waterville Valley, NH
    Posts
    7,282

    Re: Racing a 125 GP, Bunch of Q's

    I do race 12 LWGP on saturday and GTU on sunday. Could add F40 on Saturday but $. Get promoted and I can do F50.

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