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Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

  1. #1
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Let's keep the bullshit outta the thread about Jersey. I say you do it here instead...

    Just a warning though. Many of you THINK you know far more than you do about how things are run at the track, including how corner working works and how the Marshalls handle their job. Be warned that many here also VOLUNTEER many man-hours to cornerworking so that ALL the racers (and fans) can have the opportunity to further enjoy the experience. I'm sure EVERYONE that posts in this thread will touch off a nerve with SOMEONE...

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  2. #2
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    I stayed out of it in the other thread for two reasons... 1 - I wasn't up in turn 6, I was on the infield... and 2 - Jay's absolutely right, there's no need for the bullshit in Jersey's thread... There were some seriously fucked up personal attacks that had no business being there. People need to control their emotions and keep the shit flining outta there.

    But now there's a separate thread for it, I just wanna know two things...

    1 - exactly what are the responsibilities of the person in turn 6?
    2 - if he wasn't sleeping, would he have been able to at least radio everyone about what was going on so the worker in turn 5 could wave the yellow or red?

    I really think it's that simple. If he had a radio and was watching, best case scenario the yellow or red would have been waving in turn 5 w/in a few seconds... just say "oil on the race line" over the radio & i'm sure people would react, that's my guess.

    If I'm wrong or out of line, please let me know. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all the details of exactly what happened, but the fact that so many bikes went down is friggin retarded in itself, now throw in the fact that a cornerworker was allegedly sleeping on the job & it's all that more fucked up. Obviously that's gonna piss people off, especially since a good friend of ours is in the hospital on a ventilator because of this crash. Emotions are at a high, so just keep that in mind here.

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  3. #3
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    I just want to know if everything was done as it was supposed to be done.

    No I haven't cornerworked. If I'm an asshole for it, so be it.

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  4. #4
    Lifer a13x's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    I too have never seen a flag in turn 6. I see the Yellow at the top of the hill (5) letting me know something is up in 6/7. Next flag is treehouse letting me know about 8/9/10.

    The people sitting against the fence in T6 were, I have always thought to clear bikes and whatnot that end up in the gravel.

    Keep in mind also that while it may seem like a good idea to go running down to the racetrack and wave bikes off the lines / make a commotion / warn people it isn't. The cornerworkers are drilled on not walking on the racetrack now-a-days. They used to be running willynilly out there but a few 'real bad things' happened and those liberties were greatly reduced.

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  5. #5
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    I would never want any corner worker, US marshall whatnot running into the track for any reason if they were in any danger whatsoever. That adds another variable into the equation. It seems that you can see through most turns, see an accident occur or see a flag at most points in the racetrack. The bowl is an exception to a degree. A crash can occur in 7 and you won't know about it until you get to it. You can't see it occur, you can't see through the turn and you don't have any flag to reference after you crest the hill until you get within sight of the treehouse.

    I honestly think there should be a flag entering the bowl. At least a yellow and red. From the top of the hill to the treehouse is a long way. I don't scan the bowl while I'm hard on the brakes after my pre-turn. Maybe I should?

    Yes, the accident prompted this discussion. I really have a hard time with people getting pissed off that questions are being asked by people who don't know the answers. That's why I'm asking, I don't know. That's all. Instead of just saying "you've never done it so STFU" and leaving it at that, maybe tell me why i'm way off or how things are done, etc. It is a knee-jerk reaction to toss blame around before all the facts are straight when something hits home like having a teammate and friend injured. It's also my first time thinking about a lot of this stuff. Please be patient with me, I'm all ears at this point.

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  6. #6
    Lifer
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Asking a question is one thing, flaming a corner work is another. There is a flag entering the bowl, it's at turn 5. When you enter the bowl you have a clear view nearly to turn 7 well before you pass the apex in the bowl. If there were a flag at the cornerworkers main station, which is at the outside of the bowl, where do you think your bike would go if you looked at it? You'd target fixate and land in the autocross parking lot. All the flag stations are in the racing line of site and in the direction you are traveling so that your attention isnt' taken off the track. Often there isn't a cornerworkker by the fence up near seven because they are always short handed. That is an occasional luxary that they get if they can get enough people to help out. Who calls for any of the flags? A Cheif cornerworker can explain that, but I'm possitive it isn't the person on scene picking up bikes and riders, and the person holding flags CANNOT do anything with them no matter the circumstances until they are instructed to do so by the person in charge.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  7. #7
    Lifer s a x m a n's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    right, what jay said ... the flag is in turn 5 for turn 6

    the turn 5 guy CANNOT see what is happening in turn 7 from their station ... so its no excpected that they would throwing the flag in that situation ... until told of an issue.

    like alex, I have the same assumption about the turn 6 person ... they are there to clear bikes out of the "hot zone" that happen to go down in the bowl ... that is all ... i have never seen a flag there

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  8. #8
    GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! capt1014's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Being there and from what I saw, the only thing a flag or the cornerworker could have done was possibly stop about half of the bikes going down, the first 6 were into the corner and carying a good amount of speed, if the worker had the flag and was waving it the first wave of 6 bike still would have hit the oil and gone down anyway,

    I didn't see the corner worker until most of the mayhem ended.

    I think if he had a flag in hand it would have changed things somewhat but not completely stopped the situation from happening.

    I think that from 5 to 8 is a LONG way to go without SOME type of signals.

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  9. #9
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Target fixation makes sense for not throwing a flag there but that also makes me question the flag in 3. I've watched as people have frozen up for a red and locked the rear straight into the tire wall. Then again, we're novices so target fixation is more of an issue.

    I dunno, that's why I'm asking. Flaming the corner worker was a natural reaction if you thought he had flags or made the call himself. Now that I know, it's not an issue.

    How are incidents reports and flags issued? Is there one person that does all that? Are they issued sightings of incidents by corner workers and then they issue flag commands?

    In hindsight I think when I took Penguin a day of cornerworking should have been mandatory. Sure woulda been more useful than 3 sessions of practice. Or at least integrate the cornerworker school into the Penguin class session.

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  10. #10
    Lifer s a x m a n's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    are there even flags in turn 3 during a race weekend?

    I thought the turn 3 flag station was well before the braking chute ...

    I've only seen flag in the actual turn 3 during track days ... i usually just see the turn 3/10 corner workers signaling bikes to take a tight line if the flag is flying.

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  11. #11
    Lifer McBiggity's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    That's what I thought, the flag is right before the braking chute. the corner workers in turn 3 just come out to show what lines people should take to avoid downed riders/bikes.

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  12. #12
    Lifer
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    The flag for turn 3/4 is way back on the straigh before the brake section. In your line of travel and while you're not leaned over.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  13. #13
    Lifer s a x m a n's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Originally posted by hessogood
    The flag for turn 3/4 is way back on the straigh before the brake section. In your line of travel and while you're not leaned over.
    i'm glad I'm not going crazy ... i know its my rookie year, but I should know where all the flag stations are

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  14. #14
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Originally posted by s a x m a n
    i'm glad I'm not going crazy ... i know its my rookie year, but I should know where all the flag stations are
    I'm still workin on it....Think I got them all now.

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  15. #15
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    This is all fine and good discussion, but don't you think it would save a lot of time and BS to actually get trained as a marshall.

    You're re-inventing the wheel here...

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  16. #16
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Originally posted by Paul_E_D
    This is all fine and good discussion, but don't you think it would save a lot of time and BS to actually get trained as a marshall.

    You're re-inventing the wheel here...
    Hindsight is 20/20

    Gotta wait till next season regardless.

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  17. #17
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Originally posted by Paul_E_D
    This is all fine and good discussion, but don't you think it would save a lot of time and BS to actually get trained as a marshall.

    You're re-inventing the wheel here...
    Yip...

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  18. #18
    I'm mildly retarded. JeffL's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    I didnt really read anything, but my .02 are, wouldnt it possibly make sense to put a cornerworker station to the left/behind the tree in 7? That way its RIGHT in the line of sight essentially for people once they are past the apex in 6.

    Granted, I know you cant cover every inch of the track, but theres alot of room to be covered between the top of the hill in 5 and before you get in view of the treehouse in 8.

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  19. #19
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Agreed, we're trying to reinvent the wheel here... I don't think the issue of WHERE the cornerworkers are is the big deal here, it's what they're supposed to be doing. Obviously, whatever the guy was supposed to be doing wasn't getting done with him sleeping in his car.

    Now I totally respect what they do as I'm well aware of the fact that there would be no safe way of doing what we do w/o them. But when you're in a position of great responsibility, whether or not that post was an "extra bonus" and not usually maned, do your job while you're there.

    I still think it boils down to the two questions I posted above: What are the duties of a person in his position, and was there anything he could have done to keep even one bike on it's wheels that went down had he not been asleep.

    of course the second part is just "shoulda, woulda, coulda" and doesn't matter worth a shit now, but i'm sure people still wanna know.

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  20. #20
    Lifer
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    A waving flag in the treehouse is visable when you're passing turn 7 and a bit before. The track has been around for a long time and the plans and routines are well thought out. You can also see any crash in turn 7 as your round turn the apex in 6. It's nothing new for everyone to suggest a change when someone gets hurt in a crash. Crashes are unavoidable and how they happen can't be forseen. You can clearly see by the pictures that oil covered the whole track with a very narrow line that looks somewhat clean. Anyone rounding the corner can see the incident and have a short margin of time to react.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  21. #21
    Lifer
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    He is there to pick up riders and bikes, when the situation is safe for him to approach. If bikes are crashing into the impact zone he would not have been aproaching and dodging wrecks. He was in no possition to stop any bikes from crashing, or warn anyone.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  22. #22
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    no radio? I don't mean warning the riders, I mean warning all the cornerworkers. Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought I read it took a little while for the flags to come out.

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  23. #23
    Lifer
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    The corner captains have radios not everyone who is out there. Those are the people who are in charge and placed at the standard stations. As far as I know, turn 7 is not a standard station, it is an additional place when they have enough people to allow it. The standard station is near the apex of turn 6 at the outside of the track, manned by a corner captain and as many workers as can be afforded. The track is also watched from the tower which has a clear view of almost all of the track. I believe the flagging calls come from the tower only.

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  24. #24
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Look, moments of inattention are normal, and not something to blame him for. In my opinion corner workers make the environment safer, but it's still the RIDERS who have to take the risks and manage them. All the corner workers could be sleeping and I still don't see how we can place any blame on them.

    The riders who piled into that turn obviously had a moments innattention as well. In the pictures the oil is clearly visible, as is the smoke from the crashing bike. in one picture I even see a rider negotiate the spill safely. Is anyone blaming the riders?

    When I see evidence of a crash I check up unless I have enough info to safely keep pushing. Seven bikes down in the same incident seems excessive to me.

    Another question that hasn't been asked is why did that guy ride straight into Jersey? And why did Jersey sit up?

    You're not going to fix, or even improve this situation unless as a rider you recognize that the risk is higher than you thought, and you check up at the first sign of trouble and STAY DOWN when you fall.

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  25. #25
    Don't bother me! R7's Avatar
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    Recent Corner Worker Discussion...

    Once you corner work once or twice, you'll get the idea on how things work. Each flag station is possitioned where the flaggers back is facing the oncoming racing, and so they can see to the next flagger station. That is there control zone. The flagger in turn 5 should have been the one making the call on the radio, it's his/her job to watch from 5-7.

    There's no excuse for a cornerworker sleeping or napping when there are bikes on the track, weather it happened or not, who knows.
    A corner worker also has to rely on the flags being out before he/she enters a hot race track. They have every right to sit there in any situation and wait until it is safe for THEM to go out on the track. Even then, they are not obligated to run out there and chase a bike, help you up or off the track, or even make motions on the hot race track to warn riders.
    These people volunteer their time, most of them a full day at a time for peanuts as far as pay goes. They're doing it because they like being involved for the mostpart so the last thing they want to hear or read somewhere is a comment about "that fucktard cornerworker".

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