T1, slow bike guys, how do you do it?

["Dangerous" Dan K]

I've gotten some good tips from some of the expert EX racers I'm pitting with (and Dana) about all different sections of the track, but I'm curious how people deal with T1. When do you break for it, when do you turn in for it? Do you brake at all on your start lap? Saw someone telling DB not to even roll off the throttle on the start lap on his 'tard, but those things have the EX on turning and braking 6 ways to Sunday. Curious how the rest of you do it.I started off braking @ the 5 board, then the 4 board, then the 3 board, then 2.5, but with the clutch smoked I wasn't coming in as fast as I should have been. On my start lap I braked really late, 1 board probably, and am thinking I probably didn't need to brake at all for it.

Edit: um... I'm an idiot. It's freezing in the office today and my cold fingers hit 2 instead of 1... meant to ask about T1, as my post says. I have no excuse for not seeing that I'd typed T2 in the title. fail.

[Fitz]

I tried turn 2 on my ass in the rain on Friday. I found that line to run a bit wide and not help out with lining up for turn 3. Easing into the throttle was hard to do also since the bike was ~15 feet away from me.

I'm curious how other people do it too... I know I'm slow coming out of there whether I'm on or off the bike.

Fitz

["Dangerous" Dan K]

I tried turn 2 on my ass in the rain on Friday. I found that line to run a bit wide and not help out with lining up for turn 3. Easing into the throttle was hard to do also since the bike was ~15 feet away from me.

I'm curious how other people do it too... I know I'm slow coming out of there whether I'm on or off the bike.

Fitz

I meant to ask about T1, typed T1 in the post but T2 in the title for some reason. Anyway, I can see getting back on the throttle being a bit tricky in 2 when you're 15 feet from your bike.

[Doc]

Pre turn? Ever heard of it?

I have a brake marker of the 2.5- 3 but I am trying to push it back. I also try to use a turn in marker of a painted corner near the flagger box at the end of pit road.

I give it a little throttle to flip for 1a and I am usually to the left of the dark patch in the pavement when I do the flip for 1a.

I am told you can take 1 on a couple different lines and do well. Passing around the outside was my newest line.

[RyanNicholson]

I don't have any experience on the smaller bikes... but you definitely want to do a preturn around the 4 board. Wide open going past the 4 board turn toward T1 a little and take a tighter line into it. Its a VERY entry focused corner so the idea is to go deep and fast into it, since there isn't anywhere to get a good drive out of it. On my 600 I was WOT until just past the 3 board... then came down and went by the pink box about a foot to the left of it... as you go past the apex theres a patch of pavement and I'd clip the corner of it hard back on the gas to T1A, roll of just enough to make 1A then another HARD blip on the throttle before going fairly tight into T2.

Since you've got 2 tightish corners after T1 theres no need to go wide at all on the way in... you're not setting up for a drive. Carry as much speed in there as you can and brake late... if you over shoot it the track is really wide anyway so you've got some room for error.

[Doc]

I don't have any experience on the smaller bikes... but you definitely want to do a preturn around the 4 board. Wide open going past the 4 board turn toward T1 a little and take a tighter line into it. Its a VERY entry focused corner so the idea is to go deep and fast into it, since there isn't anywhere to get a good drive out of it. On my 600 I was WOT until just past the 3 board... then came down and went by the pink box about a foot to the left of it... as you go past the apex theres a patch of pavement and I'd clip the corner of it hard back on the gas to T1A, roll of just enough to make 1A then another HARD blip on the throttle before going fairly tight into T2.

Since you've got 2 tightish corners after T1 theres no need to go wide at all on the way in... you're not setting up for a drive. Carry as much speed in there as you can and brake late... if you over shoot it the track is really wide anyway so you've got some room for error.

He said SLOW guys!!!

YOU! Outta the thread!!

[RyanNicholson]

He said SLOW guys!!!

YOU! Outta the thread!!

oohhhh.... well just brake at the start/finish line then

[Doc]

oh and don't take the corner too tight or you will hit the pothole at the apex. Ask me how I know. (It should be called Doc's pothole)

["Dangerous" Dan K]

He said SLOW guys!!!

YOU! Outta the thread!!

Actually I said slow bike guys I listened right up when Eric Wood told us his line and why in Penguin. Interesting he said almost the exact same thing Ryan just said

Seriously, appreciate the replies. I'm going to be starting over on that straight now that I'll have a solid clutch for next time.

[Doc]

Well I don't think Ryan has a slow bone in his body... and his bike is not slow...

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

I tried turn 2 on my ass in the rain on Friday. I found that line to run a bit wide and not help out with lining up for turn 3. Easing into the throttle was hard to do also since the bike was ~15 feet away from me.

I'm curious how other people do it too... I know I'm slow coming out of there whether I'm on or off the bike.

Fitz

I Take 2 Tight and on the gas Hard and the power drifts you out towards the wall and puts right going into 3. Wide into 2 is wrong and as you found up Wide into 2 in the wet is REALLY wrong. If you are going into 2 and you are pointing at the wall you are tight enough.

Thats how I roll

[Pittenger5]

During AM/EX PTwins walk down ALLLL the way to the end of hot pit and watch the fast guys. You get VERY close and see how they do it. Pre-turn, and I was braking somewhere around the 2.5-3 board on the EX.
But seriously, anyone here can tell you what to do, walk down to 1 during the fast guys, even if you just go down during practice and watch them.

["Dangerous" Dan K]

During AM/EX PTwins walk down ALLLL the way to the end of hot pit and watch the fast guys. You get VERY close and see how they do it. Pre-turn, and I was braking somewhere around the 2.5-3 board on the EX.
But seriously, anyone here can tell you what to do, walk down to 1 during the fast guys, even if you just go down during practice and watch them.

Good call. I keep forgetting we can walk out there, I was just thinking about trying to get up to the bleachers to watch it. Hot pit sounds like a much better idea. Thanks.

[Awesome]

I Take 2 Tight and on the gas Hard and the power drifts you out towards the wall and puts right going into 3. Wide into 2 is wrong and as you found up Wide into 2 in the wet is REALLY wrong. If you are going into 2 and you are pointing at the wall you are tight enough.

Thats how I roll

I go past the apex in 1A and enter two all the way from the right hard on the gas end up coming through underneath people faster and driving out harder. Definitly works on the motard.

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

I go past the apex in 1A and enter two all the way from the right hard on the gas end up coming through underneath people faster and driving out harder. Definitly works on the motard.

Same Thing I think I am coming off 1a But am hitting the apex of 2 But the drive Starts in 1A

[a13x]

Actually I said slow bike guys I listened right up when Eric Wood told us his line and why in Penguin. Interesting he said almost the exact same thing Ryan just said

Seriously, appreciate the replies. I'm going to be starting over on that straight now that I'll have a solid clutch for next time.

Honda Hawk 70hp
Suzuki RMZ 52hp

Ride T1 the same way Ryan described. Well, except I pre-turn on the RMZ more around the 2 board, not the 4 board. WFO until the 1 board, slight braking, downshift, back on the gas before the apex in 1 (that's motard thou...hehe)

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

Honda Hawk 70hp
Suzuki RMZ 52hp
KTM SMR 450 48.9hp

Ride T1 the same way Ryan described. Well, except I pre-turn on the RMZ more around the 2 board, not the 4 board. WFO until the 1 board, slight braking, downshift, back on the gas before the apex in 1 (that's motard thou...hehe)

Fixed it for you

[Kurlon]

On our bikes, you can safely come in pretty much topped out and still make T1, so don't worry about being too hot, you'll be dropping a gear or two before tip in which will set your speed and allow you to actually get some drive between T1 and T1a.

I'll drag my notebook out later and see if I can give you a full reference point by reference point guideline, along with the suggestions Eric and Carl gave me specifically for small/light bikes vs bigger machines.

["Dangerous" Dan K]

Kurlon: Kick ass, thanks!

[Doc]

My Hawk only has 65hp...

[Kurlon]

Still haven't dug out my notebook, so I'll try running from memory.

Start out ripping* down the front straight hugging the right wall. Ideally top gear and singing. I break away for my preturn at the 3 board, aiming to be about two thirds to the right of the left edge of a double strip patch of pavement on the NASCAR track. My next target is to cross the transition from the oval to the infield on the yellow dash before the pink box on that seam. After that, my next target is nailing the apex by timing my full turn in. Ideally I want my tires to be just off the left curb at the apex cone as I pass, and be rolling hot enough that with throttle I HAVE to drift out so I don't quite reach the dark repair patch before T1A. Time your flip to the right so that again, you end up having your wheel just off the right curb as you go by. If I hit this right I'm two thirds to the right as I'm approaching the NASCAR oval again in prep for T2. One decisive push on the left bar to set the turn, I want to be about 8" off the curb at the apex, and come out with the bike aiming for the end of the airfence, with my throttle and roll speed hot enough to force me out to it.

As you come in to T1, you want to get one or ideally two downshifts in before the apex, so you can hammer up to T1A. I'm having a hard time here. The 1st is easy, touch of brake post preturn, throttle still partially open, downshift as I'm approaching the yellow line and seam separating the oval from the infield, and it helps set the bike for final tip in. That final tip in drops my speed another notch, and I should be able to work a downshift before cranking it WOT again, but it just hasn't felt right, as a result my drive is weak to T1A. I have been instead getting one gear, rolling the throttle on as I can through T1, and as I transition from left to right doing a clutchless downshift and hammering the throttle for a lil boost before committing to T1A. The times I do get my two downshifts in pre T1 as suggested by Eric it feels like I'm letting my roll speed drop too much through T1, but damn can I CHARGE into T1A, and carry that drive through T2 for a nice attack into T3.

I think a new clutch cable that isn't as kinked as the one I'm using at the moment (Forced curves as it wasn't expecting to be used with clipons, or trying to additionally route around a headlight bucket with said clipons) to reduce clutch effort, and getting better about keeping the throttle up while dropping gears so it's not as much forced engine breaking will help. I might find an adjustable clutch so I can bring the lever closer to the bar as well, I don't need much throw... It should be just like T9 where I don't brake, I just drop a gear and let that set the front just before committing, but I don't have the feel right yet.

* Ripping for an EX/GS means about 100mph...

["Dangerous" Dan K]

Sweet, thanks!

[RyanNicholson]

Kurlon - Again i'm not a small bike guy so I'm just venturing a guess from my experience... so take this with a grain of salt... but if your down shifts into T1 feel like they are slowing you down when you hit them maybe you have more braking power than your giving the bike credit for? Its not easy to move your brake marker up and make those 2 downshifts, esp when you're already having trouble doing so though. Theres definitely an art to blipping the throttle, downshifting, and braking all at the same time... but its a necessary one to learn. Making quick smooth downshifts while hard on the brakes also helps keep the rear of the bike in check when done smoothly...

I would definitely work on practicing that and getting those 2 downshifts in every time... you'll be able to go into T1 deeper and faster, and charge through T1A like a bat out of hell like you said.

[Doc]

and charge through T1A like a bat out of hell like you said.

Or a bat waking from it's winter slumber... All depends on your perspective.

[Kurlon]

Based on my class Friday, the only real difference between small bikes and big bikes in T1 seems to be the available line margin, smaller bikes can safely get away with being a bit shallower coming in. On the way out of T2, we can aim a bit further back along the wall as we can again, get away with a bit more final correction to aim for the T3 chute, so go for a harder initial drive. Other than that, small bike, big bike, the technique and advice is all the same, so to hell with the others, I want your opinion Ryan! : )

I think part of it for me is mental, I have no problem making the bike scream when I drop a gear for T9, but for some reason when I end my downshifts for T1/T3 I end up being in the low to mid RPM range like on the street... I'll definitely have to work on that.