Can you teach fast?

[lrrs313]

Saw this thread over on the WERA board and thought it was an interesting topic for the winter bench racing crowd.

Personal opinion: you can teach someone to be fast. How fast depends on the person. Not just their natural abilites, but their age, financial situation, and mentality. I think you need to start with a young, athletic person with plenty of money and possibly some industry connections who is highly motivated to get to an elite level. Then, you need luck.

What do the rest of you think, since we have some guys on here who are fast local experts, some guys who have been on the grid at AMA Nationals, and some guys who have connections with THE fast guys from Team Texas.

[Manny]

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There must be at least some natural ability and talent. I think the hard part is figuring out what those skills or talents are that allows a person to learn to be fast.

I for example have zero natural talent.

[union]

I think you can show fast but cant teach it. Feel is a very important skill. I think its something you cant teach. Its something each person has to figure out on their own.

[BrianC]

Obviously there are some things that can be taught... just look at all the kids who start at age 4 or 5 and go on to be super fast because they had good teachers or a father who used to race and brought them up in the sport. That, along with alot of practice. There are some things that can be taught, but in my opinion, a majority of motorcycle riding, whether it's dirt or street, has to be learned through personal experience. It's just like anything else... a combination of things, kind of like you said. To be a good rider or a fast racer would take experience, good teaching or advice, and a natural aggressive drive to push yourself beyond "normal" safe comfort zones. Intelligence is also a factor, and that can't be learned. An intelligent person can learn alot on their own and be taught easier, whereas someone w/less intelligence may have alot more trouble. As for money, I don't know, where there's a will there's a way I guess.

[eboos]

Don't worry Manny. What you lack in talent you make up for in age.

[Pigman]

You can teach only so much untill the Pucker Factor kicks in and seperates the Men from the Boys...

[csmutty]

Well to be successful today you need to start very young. There are not too many that make it up to the AMA level that started on their own without their parents help. I think this is because of feel. Growing up that young riding you develop a great sense of what the bike is doing underneath you and riding itself becomes second nature. Thinking about what motor skills and how you are going to apply them does not happen. Look at Sweeney, Narbonne, Hildebrand, and Lyskawa. Cronin is the rarity.

[Manny]

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Don't worry Manny. What you lack in talent you make up for in age.

How old do you think I am?

[Degsy]

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Don't worry Manny. What you lack in talent you make up for in age.

Pretty sure manny is a bit younger than you Erik!!

[Paul_E_D]

My answer after many years teaching riding at beginner to advanced levels. You can teach techniques that make learning to go fast easier. The rider ultimately has to learn to go fast on his own.

[Charlief]

My answer after many years teaching riding at beginner to advanced levels. You can teach techniques that make learning to go fast easier. The rider ultimately has to learn to go fast on his own.

I agree 100%

I'm just slow because it's genetic. My dad was slow. His dad was slow and so on

[breakdirt916]

can you teach anyone to be the best at anything?

most likely, no.



but come on people, is it really about being the fastest?

no, it's about making money off people who think they can be the fastest with some paid training

[/joke]

no seriously...I think Paul's right, teaching only goes so far

[Chippertheripper]

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Pretty sure manny is a bit younger than you Erik!!

Don't worry, what Erik lacks in talent he makes up in slow.

[Alvecchio]

as a professional/certified instructor I will say this depends on your definition of "teaching". Most people think teaching is giving someone skills and knowledge by simply showing or telling. This will not facilitate learning because it is contingent on the material actually being absorbed. Memorizing knowledge is easy so long as it is taught with enough time to break it down into small bits that can be learned a little at a time. In this instance you would have someone repeat back the knowledge and then apply it somehow either through a test/discussion.

Then again, as we all know, what you know and what you can do are entirely different. At the MSF course you're taught the controls and theory of motorcycle riding, then you actually go DO it. You KNOW that you should let off the throttle, pull in the clutch, shift, release the clutch then apply throttle, but can you DO that? It takes practice. Trying to do that on the street would be a terrible idea with all the other distractions that would otherwise take up your brain power(it works just like a computer, it can only handle so much at once). The best way to do it is in that lovely, controlled, traffic-free lot where you can focus on your skills.

"Speed," is just a product of well executed skills, like anything else. Theoretically, one could learn all the skills needed to be "fast". It would just have to be taught a step at a time. Basic motor skills first(counter-steering, body position, throttle application, braking, shifting, etc.), then things like lines, apexes, passing, different types of turns, bumps, etc., then critical thinking such as when its necessary to bend the "rules"(coming off the line to pass, trail braking). If you focus on one of these things at a time it can theoretically be done. The problem with most skill building programs do not directly assess each individual students barriers to learning. You need a skilled instructor that is able to find the core problems with a students skill application. It would be like telling someone they need to work on tightening their line without explaining how that's done or what they're doing wrong.

The biggest x-factor here is the students true desire to learn to be fast. You must have a constant drive to improve. If they are content with their current capabilities/progress, OR(most commonly) are afraid to get "better", they just wont let themselves learn any more. It CAN be done, though. You just might have to be extreme, like wrapping the person in bubble wrap and covering everything but the track surface in foam. Under those circumstances, they might grow some balls

[Nazo]

Very interesting topic. One that I have thought about often. I think to get fast on the track you do need to start with a natural ability for good bike feel and control. Once you have that abilility and have the balls to push the limits of traction then a lot of important skills can be honed through education and practice. I also believe that good equipment is very important. A well set up bike will help boost confidence and increase the ability to go faster.

[NobodySpecific]

I think riding fast and playing an instrument well are very closely related in that it requires certain knowledge to be able to do, but without natural skill you can only progress so far. Natural ability without knowledge will also only get you so far. If you combine the two, then the sky is the limit.

[Chippertheripper]

If anybody that IS fast wants to try and teach, I'll gladly volunteer to be taught.

[Alvecchio]

A lot of people reference "natural ability" with all kinds of things. I train heavy equipment operators and I do t believe there's any such thing as a "natural" just people that have prior, relatable experience that can make a connection with the skills they are trying to apply. I'm talking basic experience too, like VERY basic, which stems from intelligence. Rarely is someone a "natural" at just one thing. They're usually the kind of person that catches on to things easy. These people are usually just very good at applying skills on a small, cumulative scale where they can UNDERSTAND one thing at a time.

The understanding is what usually throttles learning progress. You can say to someone "this lever slows you down." It doesn't though. That statement has planted false information that will limit the persons progress. The brake lever applied pressure to the calipers hydraulically which will then squeeze the rotors causing friction, slowing down the WHEEL. So long as the tire has sufficient friction against the surface it will slow the bike. In the grass/gravel, how well does the brake work to slow you down?

If you understand the skills and knowledge you are trying to apply you can progress forward. Every skill that is applied without understanding, though, is just another anchor to forward progress.

[OreoGaborio]

I think the ability to go "fast" just comes down to having a good combination of talent, seat time, money & trust... trust in yourself, trust in your equipment, trust in others to make things as safe as possible. Some of it can be taught, some of it can't. But I think one thing we can all agree on is that ANYONE can at the very least improve their riding when guided by a good teacher.

I've been very lucky to have many very good teachers over the years. Ken, Graham, Degsy, Paul, Gino, Mark Dages, Joel Allen and many, many, many others... I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today if I had to do it all on my own, that's for damn sure!

[bostongixxer]

Seems to me that at some point skills and balls intersect. I'll sometimes find that as I try to push harder, my skills lack the ability to compensate and I lose traction (one way or another). That's where seat time and teaching can really make a difference...that breeds better feel. ...and so it goes...

[Manny]

I think one thing we are all ignoring is that the real fast guys are real fast from the start.

Sure, good teaching helps us all get faster, but I would bet that for the guys winning races with regularity (and not crashing excessively) they were all fast from the start, and got better from there. I guarantee none of them looked like I did when I started.

There are some things that need a certain amount of natural talent and this is one of them. Maybe that can be minimized a certain degree if starting young, but at the end of the day to be fast you need some natural talent.

[Paul_E_D]

You'd be surprised Manny. I know I ran 38s my first weekend. Everyone starts at the beginning. Obviously the younger you start the sooner you get fast.

The really fast guys are the ones who find ways to keep learning at a steady pace. Not usually dropping 5 seconds in a weekend type thing. That's balls, not skilll. That usually gets you hurt, broke, or both. Dropping one second a weekend until you are a winning expert is a pretty good goal. There will be plateaus, but you won't crash as much as people who are greedy for time.

[DucDave]

If they have the appetite to learn, anyone can be taught to get 'faster'. But, I think there is something different in the mental make up of the guys that are truely fast. They have a direct connection between the theory and practice. They understand bike set-up and are able to make meaningful changes based on what they learn from others and their own experience. I believe their 'feel' is orders of magnatude more developed than that of the rest of us. After a certain point, I'm not sure they are 'taught' anymore...but they certainly never stop learning.

I'm always looking for a little 'faster' but will never be a 'fast guy'...

[Stromper]

The potential is or isn't there by age 6

[nt650hawk]

My thoughts:
I think it boils down to three: learning, analysing and execution.
There are levels for each of them.

To be fast you would need to be at the highest level on all three categories. Not everyone can achieve this. They may be better in some but not all.