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Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

  1. #26

    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Have you been to NCbike? It's flat, and you can't see the end of the straight! And it is perfectly straight.

    No I haven't. I asked two friends from Jersey they both claim 160 via GPS
    The Daytona numbers (yes we are excluding it just saying) are high 160s low 170s (draft could be there too)

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  2. #27
    Is this thing on? Mr. Kurtz's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodcraft View Post
    GPS data on my Kawasaki 636 topped out at 136-137 mph.
    Quote Originally Posted by gixer363 View Post
    Expert riders will hit upper 140's on a 600 down the main straight.
    Wait...

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  3. #28
    Is this thing on? Mr. Kurtz's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Have you been to NCbike? It's flat, and you can't see the end of the straight! And it is perfectly straight.
    Proof that the earth is flat!


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  4. #29
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Kurtz View Post
    Wait...
    I was told this by an expert racer Mike.... Exaggeration???? lol

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

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  5. #30
    Is this thing on? Mr. Kurtz's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixer363 View Post
    I was told this by an expert racer Mike.... Exaggeration???? lol

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    maybe. I'm picturing the look on those guys' faces when E Wood goes by them, sitting sidesaddle, holding up a GPS lap timer showing 136mph, as they look down at their speedos reading 149mph.

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  6. #31
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Bingo bango. *Indicated* speed is only a very loose indicator of true speed.

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  7. #32
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Yes, my point here was to introduce realistic numbers. Almost everyone exaggerates by 10 mph/10 HP. Careful who you listen to on line. Eric provided real numbers, as did I. I have been using GPS data for the last 4 years, and have adjusted my expectations for both corner and straight speeds down accordingly.

    Also, to Richie's COTA point, slower riders will often reach higher top speeds because when you are slow in the corners, you actually have longer straights.

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  8. #33
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Yes, my point here was to introduce realistic numbers. Almost everyone exaggerates by 10 mph/10 HP. Careful who you listen to on line. Eric provided real numbers, as did I. I have been using GPS data for the last 4 years, and have adjusted my expectations for both corner and straight speeds down accordingly.

    Also, to Richie's COTA point, slower riders will often reach higher top speeds because when you are slow in the corners, you actually have longer straights.
    Doesn't this contradict all that data that Graham (I think it was him) and co. put out talking about the difference in exit speed at NHMS coming out of T12 and it's impact on your top speed down the front straight? e.g. the more MPH top guys carry out of the turn and onto the front straight, has a much bigger impact than having a slightly longer straightaway (particularly at COTA, I mean come on their back straight is gigantic). Your last statement just doesn't seem right to me....

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  9. #34
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    I see it in the data. My fastest laps never have the highest top speed.

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  10. #35
    Lifer backinthesaddle's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Could it be that a higher speed on the straight is followed by harder braking which drops off more speed than slightly slower top end speed which results in less braking effort reducing speed in the corner following the straight?

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  11. #36
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Kurtz View Post
    Top speed at Loudon for a 600? maybe. I'm picturing the look on those guys' faces when E Wood goes by them, sitting sidesaddle, holding up a GPS lap timer showing 136mph, as they look down at their speedos reading 149mph.
    I think E Wood would know Mike...lol. Only man that might go faster would be Narbone IMO.

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  12. #37
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    ...slower riders will often reach higher top speeds because when you are slow in the corners, you actually have longer straights.
    I can't work that one out. A guy exiting a corner at 30 can maybe get the bike up just a bit faster than a guy exiting at 50. Just a bit. But the guy exiting at 50 has yards on the guy exiting at 30, and motorcycle engines spool up so fast that torque curves and rpm bands shouldn't matter as much. I don't think 30-130 is any more advantageous than going 50-130 from a power delivery perspective.

    I can't work out how the guy exiting at 50 will trap lower than the guy exiting at 30 over the same length of runway.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 05-11-17 at 01:12 PM.

  13. #38
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    In drag racing your slower times sometimes have higher mph as your actually on the track longer or if you broke traction on your launch as well Your best ET can have lower mph as you were on the track a shorter time hence the quicker ET. If u bogged​ your motor leaving the line your mph will always be in the toilet.

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  14. #39
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Here is the post I was thinking of. FAK, TEN YEARS AGO.

    But I think I grasp it a bit, if you exit T12 going quicker, you're going faster the entire time you're on the straight, complete the straight quicker and have to brake earlier. This is the only situation I can think of where your top speed might be higher when exiting a corner slower. And that's because we have short-ass straightaways at NHMS.

    At COTA, Summit Point, and a few others... you're reaching the top speed of your bike no matter what provided you aren't on something ridiculous. On those tracks it should make zero difference on exit speeds, the physics of air moving over your bike at top speed is the limiting factor.

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    Last edited by scottieducati; 05-11-17 at 01:18 PM.

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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Also, to Richie's COTA point, slower riders will often reach higher top speeds because when you are slow in the corners, you actually have longer straights.
    I feel like my yard was just stomped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    My favorite was you going through T2 with your eyes closed.

  16. #41
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixer363 View Post
    In drag racing your slower times sometimes have higher mph as your actually on the track longer or if you broke traction on your launch as well Your best ET can have lower mph as you were on the track a shorter time hence the quicker ET. If u bogged​ your motor leaving the line your mph will always be in the toilet.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    Yes, I am aware of that. I trapped 121 with street runflats on my car in the quarter mile because I spun a lot at the start. When I switched to drag radials, I have been trapping 4-5 mph less with better ETs.

    But race motorcycles on a road course are different from drag racing cars down the quarter mile. Torque curves, how quickly the engine spools up, corner exit speeds - all different. I can't see how a drag racing analogy applies here.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 05-11-17 at 01:20 PM.

  17. #42
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    It applies when you have a short straightaway and your "top speed" is limited by how long you can accelerate.

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  18. #43
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Yes, I am aware of that. I trapped 121 with street runflats on my car because I spun a lot at the start. When I switched to drag radials, I have been trapping 4-5 mph less.

    But race motorcycles are different from drag racing cars. Torque curves, how quickly engine spools up, corner exit speeds - all difference. I can't see how a drag racing analogy applies here.
    I was supporting Paul's comment, his fastest laps ET wise had the lowest mph on the main straight.... That's the relationship. Another point would be if your hazing the tire off the corners, losing traction it which might increase your mph as your on the main straightaway longer. Lot more variables in Road Racing but there are some similarities Imo.

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  19. #44
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    I can't work that one out. A guy exiting a corner at 30 can maybe get the bike up just a bit faster than a guy exiting at 50. Just a bit. But the guy exiting at 50 has yards on the guy exiting at 30, and motorcycle engines spool up so fast that torque curves and rpm bands shouldn't matter as much. I don't think 30-130 is any more advantageous than going 50-130 from a power delivery perspective.

    I can't work out how the guy exiting at 50 will trap lower than the guy exiting at 30 over the same length of runway.
    Except we are not talking about a 20mph differential. More like 3mph or maybe 5. That little opportunity to square it up earlier and get harder on the gas has enough of an effect.

    If you look at slow guys data and fast guys data, you might be shocked to see that the faster guys are slower at the slowest point mid corner. It's not a lot of MPHs, but it makes a lot of difference in drive. high corner momentum can absolutely make you slower on the straight. Finding the optimum point of momentum vs drive for each corner is what it's about IMO.

    I'm speaking from my experience looking at my data as well as my students data as I transitioned from a 125 race with maximum momentum, to a 600 rider. I'm not at Eric's level on the 600 by any means as I don't race, but I'm at expert race pace on it and learning really quickly applying this line of thinking.

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  20. #45
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Sooo, the difference is who has the highest average speed down the straight not the highest peak speed. He who goes fastest longest wins......

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  21. #46
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Everyone is looking at this in a vacuum too. The rider with higher trap speed could very well have overcooked the entry into turn 1....

    Peak trap speed at the straight is irrelevant if it ultimately leads to a lower lap time.

    It's more like what's the peak effective top speed at the end of the straight for the lowest lap time vs. what's the fastest a 600 can possibly go there.

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  22. #47
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Sooo, the difference is who has the highest average speed down the straight not the highest peak speed. He who goes fastest longest wins......
    To think of it in a simpler way, the person with the fastest average speed over a section of track spent the least amount of time in that section.

    Time = Distance / Rate. As rate increases, time decreases.

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  23. #48
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Everyone is looking at this in a vacuum too. The rider with higher trap speed could very well have overcooked the entry into turn 1....

    Peak trap speed at the straight is irrelevant if it ultimately leads to a lower lap time.

    It's more like what's the peak effective top speed at the end of the straight for the lowest lap time vs. what's the fastest a 600 can possibly go there.
    Definitely. I get what you guys are saying, in theory. I am still struggling with how a guy with the best laptime cannot also have the best top speed. Just not intuitive to me.

    One guy (say Eric Wood) exits T12 at whatever speed he typically does (high) and goes down the straight.
    Second guy starts from a standstill at T12 and goes down the straight. Taking your example to an extreme, let's assume the second guy literally starts from a standstill.

    Will you data show that second guy will have a higher top speed Paul?!

    Top speed is also closely related to late breaking (how long you hold it wide open) ?

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 05-11-17 at 03:16 PM.

  24. #49
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    The best lap time and the highest top speed are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to have both but it's not a requirement.

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  25. #50
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    Re: Top speed at Loudon for a 600?

    I don't have data like that, and cannot comment on it. What I am certain of is the MY fastest laps often have my slowest top speed in a session. Sometimes by as much as almost 10mph (usually about 5 though). Getting around a track quickly sure isn't simple. That's why we keep coming back!

    I think my explanations are clear for what I understand of it. Flat tracking a lot lately has opened my eyes to what is going on. Not enough grip to rail mid corner means you have to create speed on the way in, and on the way out of corners. Doing so on a road course does not usually lead to the highest possible top speed for me. When I look at motogp times and splits I see the same thing. It is possible that a perfect lap would also have that highest trap speed, it's just not likely in my experience and opinion.

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