Trophies!

[Doc]

I've never understood this way of thinking. what difference does it make that it's Loudon only? what class is it that's also LRRS only, production twins I think. if you win an Ex production twins race it means nothing by your reasoning. That win means nothing because the rest of the country doesn't run that class.

Because if there was no novice class at Loudon they would all be back markers. (for the most part) and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

["Dangerous" Dan K]

I've never understood this way of thinking. what difference does it make that it's Loudon only? what class is it that's also LRRS only, production twins I think. if you win an Ex production twins race it means nothing by your reasoning. That win means nothing because the rest of the country doesn't run that class.

Leave proddy twins outta this!

[OreoGaborio]

Because if there was no novice class at Loudon they would all be back markers. (for the most part) and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So you're saying novice race winners.... if they had yellow plates... would be coming in LAST in all of their races?

... okay.


[tongue in cheek]By the way, Major League Baseball is only in US and Canada so winning an MLB championship really isn't that big of an accomplishment because the rest of the world doesn't have the MLB. [/tongue in cheek]

My point being, even though we're sanctioned by CCS, LRRS is LRRS. We're our own series. What other racing series do is their own business. We have the Novice class. Just because other series don't doesn't make a bit of difference (at least, not to me)

[butcher bergs]

As an outsider looking in at an organization that is trying to attract more racers and spectators, a group of higher level racers admitting it was great to receive a trophy and actually excepting the trophy saying that the next group of Novices are undeserving of the same reward for the same accomplishment makes you look like a bunch of jerks.

*accepting

Nevermind the part where I knew it didn't mean anything though.


If I could describe it using smilies it would look like this:

"Great"


It's like getting a trophy in little league or something except that as an adult you know those early acheivements are merely a stepping stone. I feel the same way about my AM trophies. I want Post-Its too!!




BTW, you can call me a jerk directly Alex.

[obsolete]

*accepting

Nevermind the part where I knew it didn't mean anything though.


If I could describe it using smilies it would look like this:

"Great"


It's like getting a trophy in little league or something except that as an adult you know those early acheivements are merely a stepping stone. I feel the same way about my AM trophies. I want Post-Its too!!




BTW, you can call me a jerk directly Alex.

There are more than one of you acting like a jerk about it I didn't want anyone to feel left out.

[Doc]

So you're saying novice race winners.... if they had yellow plates... would be coming in LAST in all of their races?

No, not last Pete, but they wouldn't be on the podium (for the most part).

Plus they are racing in conglomerate classes. How is that fair? Dude on an EX500 doesn't really have a chance against guys on SV650's (for the most part).

[butcher bergs]

I've never understood this way of thinking. what difference does it make that it's Loudon only? what class is it that's also LRRS only, production twins I think. if you win an Ex production twins race it means nothing by your reasoning. That win means nothing because the rest of the country doesn't run that class.

Well you can happily take your Proddy Twins points to NJMP or Summit and have a go at those tracks.

My point of view is based on being able to run at multiple venues. My understanding is that , as an LRRS Novice you certainly aren't going to be able to run in a place such as New Jersey because you more or less aren't even licensed to do such a thing.

[OreoGaborio]

Plus they are racing in conglomerate classes. How is that fair? Dude on an EX500 doesn't really have a chance against guys on SV650's (for the most part).

That's correct, but I'm not sure what your point is.

[OreoGaborio]

My understanding is that , as an LRRS Novice you certainly aren't going to be able to run in a place such as New Jersey because you more or less aren't even licensed to do such a thing.

Sure ya can. You're still a licensed CCS racer. You're just considered an Amateur when you go to NJMP & gotta put yellow plates on.

[butcher bergs]

Sure ya can. You're still a licensed CCS racer. You're just considered an Amateur when you go to NJMP & gotta put yellow plates on.

Just like that?

That only serves to reinforce my opinion on the matter.

[smf]

given the way it is now:

your perf in novice is no longer based on how well you do compared to other novices, it's purely based on laptime compared to experts. Win a novice race but don't hit the laptime threshold to move to Am, congrats... you didn't hit the mark yet. You're not racing others yet, you're racing the clock, yellow plates are the reward for hitting crossing the goal line.

Well, rationalize it however. It is a race, plain and simple. It's even recognized as such by announcing the winners of said contest at the end of the day.

you're missing the point. technically speaking it's not a race - yes, everyone is racing and the procedures are the same a race, the adrenaline's going, etc, but in all actuality it's a TT. so, award something (trophy, cert, post-it) based on winning the TT (going fast enough to bump). since that is the new goal. no? oh wait. they do. you get yellow plates. but including a certificate or something that can be framed sounds easy enough AND would have bonus of not screwing the guys forced to run against bikes that are much more capable.

the only question this doesn't answer is if there is a min number of TTs a rider must complete before bumping to AM (so if you're fast enough in the first, do you still have to do more?)

[CBR929RE]

No, not last Pete, but they wouldn't be on the podium (for the most part).

Plus they are racing in conglomerate classes. How is that fair? Dude on an EX500 doesn't really have a chance against guys on SV650's (for the most part).

why doesn't he? I lapped guys in a couple of my races. we were on similar bikes so why weren't they going just as fast? You should know that in NV the bike has far less to do with it than in AM/EX. If they combined all the bikes into one class than Chuck would have beaten me but my bike should beat his cause he's only on an SV650 and I'm on a CBR600RR.

[smf]

why doesn't he? I lapped guys in a couple of my races. we were on similar bikes so why weren't they going just as fast? You should know that in NV the bike has far less to do with it than in AM/EX. If they combined all the bikes into one class than Chuck would have beaten me but my bike should beat his cause he's only on an SV650 and I'm on a CBR600RR.

and jeff or eric would beat all of you on stock ex500s, doesn't mean it's a fair fight and should be treated as one in handling awards.

[The Snowman]

the only question this doesn't answer is if there is a min number of TTs a rider must complete before bumping to AM (so if you're fast enough in the first, do you still have to do more?)

I can answer this one, yes, but it is determined by those who make the decisions on whether to bump someone or not. It is not in black and white in the rulebook.

In my case, I made 26's (the threshold required for a lightweight to bump to amateur) in 3 of 7 races that I entered in 2010 and requested a bump before round #1 this season. I was denied because the powers that be said that I was not consistently running them, even though those 3 races I did run the 26's were all in the last weekend I participated in. (I only participated in 2 weekends, the first I ran 4 races, the second 3 races)

why doesn't he? I lapped guys in a couple of my races. we were on similar bikes so why weren't they going just as fast? You should know that in NV the bike has far less to do with it than in AM/EX. If they combined all the bikes into one class than Chuck would have beaten me but my bike should beat his cause he's only on an SV650 and I'm on a CBR600RR.

ONLY an SV? Tell that to Pete, Scott Mullin, or the #1 plate holder of Rick Doucette.

[Doc]

That's correct, but I'm not sure what your point is.

Wouldn't a novice, racing an ex500 in a Novice PTwins class have a better chance at a podium than racing with a bunch of LW and ULSB's?

Isn't it unfair to have trophies up for grabs when all the bikes in the class are not similar?

Ooohhh I got a Winner's trophy... I was on a GSXR 750 and all the other guys were on EX500's but I still won!

[CBR929RE]

ONLY an SV? Tell that to Pete, Scott Mullin, or the #1 plate holder of Rick Doucette.

exactly my point. it wasn't the bike, it was the rider.

[OreoGaborio]

you're missing the point. technically speaking it's not a race - yes, everyone is racing and the procedures are the same a race, the adrenaline's going, etc, but in all actuality it's a TT.

I'm aware that the requirement to bump is now a more of a lap time requirement and not an index requirement, but I have seen nothing from LRRS stating that Noivce races are no longer "races", but "TT's" where everyone leaves the line at the same time and tries to get a time that qualifies them to bump... As far as I'm aware, they're still called RACES and have race winners based on who crosses the line first, not who sets the fastest lap time.

You're not making things up as you go, are ya?

[smf]

Isn't it unfair to have trophies up for grabs when all the bikes in the class are not similar?

and there is the problem for everyone that wants a trophy for their recent NV win. how are you not ignoring the other guys that are forced to run against you on less capable machinery, and only forced to so because they aren't AMs yet? seems pretty hypocritical to me.

[OreoGaborio]

Just like that?
That only serves to reinforce my opinion on the matter.

So because LRRS doesn't give out the race license and CCS does, but CCS doesn't have a Novice class, it what, doesn't technically exist?

[Doc]

I can answer this one, yes, but it is determined by those who make the decisions on whether to bump someone or not. It is not in black and white in the rulebook.

In my case, I made 26's (the threshold required for a lightweight to bump to amateur) in 3 of 7 races that I entered in 2010 and requested a bump before round #1 this season. I was denied because the powers that be said that I was not consistently running them, even though those 3 races I did run the 26's were all in the last weekend I participated in. (I only participated in 2 weekends, the first I ran 4 races, the second 3 races)ONLY an SV? Tell that to Pete, Scott Mullin, or the #1 plate holder of Rick Doucette.

You requested your first bump before the rule changes. You did not have enough races (10) to bump before the rules changes. That imho is why Don said no the first time. Rules changed and you made the cut. Congrats.

As for the Conglomerate classes.

You have a race... lined up are an sv650, an RS125, and EX500 and a CBR600. Same rider on each bike. What bike will win and is it a fair race?

My point is the races are not fair anymore so how can you expect to get a trophy when you are not racing in classes as defined in the CCS rulebook? How can a MWSB be considered fair against a LWSB?
As has been said, the novices are racing against the clock, not against others in their class.

[OreoGaborio]

and there is the problem for everyone that wants a trophy for their recent NV win. how are you not ignoring the other guys that are forced to run against you on less capable machinery, and only forced to so because they aren't AMs yet? seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I was "forced" to run against riders on more capable machinery when I was a Novice so that I could bump to AM in a quicker time frame.

I was then "forced" ro run against riders on more capable machinery when I was an Amateur so that I could bump to Expert in a quicker time frame.

Big deal. People ride up a class all the time. I'm not entirely sure where that fits into this discussion about Novice podium recognition.

[Doc]

I was "forced" to run against riders on more capable machinery when I was a Novice so that I could bump to AM in a quicker time frame.

I was then "forced" ro run against riders on more capable machinery when I was an Amateur so that I could bump to Expert in a quicker time frame.

Big deal. People ride up a class all the time. I'm not entirely sure where that fits into this discussion about Novice podium recognition.

But did you get trophies?

[OreoGaborio]

Wouldn't a novice, racing an ex500 in a Novice PTwins class have a better chance at a podium than racing with a bunch of LW and ULSB's?

Isn't it unfair to have trophies up for grabs when all the bikes in the class are not similar?

Ooohhh I got a Winner's trophy... I was on a GSXR 750 and all the other guys were on EX500's but I still won!

Show me race results where a novice on a GSXR750 raced against a novice an EX500.

[smf]

I was "forced" to run against riders on more capable machinery when I was a Novice so that I could bump to AM in a quicker time frame.

I was then "forced" ro run against riders on more capable machinery when I was an Amateur so that I could bump to Expert in a quicker time frame.

Big deal. People ride up a class all the time. I'm not entirely sure where that fits into this discussion about Novice podium recognition.

aahhhh. but that was your CHOICE since you WANTED To bump faster. you didn't have to do that and in addition you ran classes where your bike WAS competitive. there's a set of people that don't have the choice of running in classes where their bike is competitive. they're getting screwed and you're not willing to admit it? seriously? wow.

[OreoGaborio]

But did you get trophies?

Yes I did.

And I still do. I race my LWSS legal SV in LWSB, LWGP and GTL where bigger, more powerful bikes are allowed... and last year I raced my SV against middlweights in the Pirelli Diablo 600 Challenge. So what?