Trophies!

[butcher bergs]

Brian, I will laminate your Post-It free of charge.

[BrianC]

What if there was no Novice class?

Honestly, I think some of us would get faster quicker if we had someone to chase and watch...

Brian, I will laminate your Post-It free of charge.

Thanks man... I might consider continuing to race then.
This thread really got us all over-thinking the issue... I mean after my 1st race the last thing on my mind was a trophy. I was just glad to have completed the thing... I went back to the pits and it wasn't until later on that one of the guys asked me if I got my "wood" that I even thought about it. I actually don't care at all and just want to get faster, but I don't see any hurt in having them.

[OreoGaborio]

Honestly, I think some of us would get faster quicker if we had someone to chase and watch...

Patience, grasshoppah. Quicker faster isn't always better.

[butcher bergs]

Thanks man... I might consider continuing to race then.

I'm putting time, effort and artistic talent into these things and all I get is a "might"??!!???

[Mustang]

I don't know about you but I didn't get into racing for the trophys.

No one gives a crap what your personal motivation was for getting into or continuing to race. What Pete, et al, is getting at is in general not giving some type of physical recognition to NV podiums does nothing but hurt growth of the series/attendance.

Pete, even you must be able to see that there are other major contributing factors to that and trophies probably don't even make the list.

There certainly are other factors contributing to that...but Bergs you must be able to see that no "trophies" when they are expected could be a factor too, at least going forward, while NV is still in existance.

We've hung out in person, I think you have a general idea about me that I'm not a tool...but even I second guessed whether to come back for Round 2 after finding out that LRRS was doing nothing for the newbs. Yes, that was a selfish thought...and yes, those thoughts were relatively fleeting...but they're still in the back of my mind. If it weren't for the friends I already have at the track, and those I hope to make, I wouldn't be packing my bags tomorrow. Being a HUGE cheapass though, it's tough to swallow getting nothing for something.

If the new Novices want recognition maybe we can make up a Rider certificate of achievement or something.

Welcome to 8 pages ago

Not sure whether you were joking here, but I actually kind of like this idea.

Taken out of context like that, yes I was joking.

Anyone got the numbers for how many trophys, plaques, etc are ignored and not picked up, by rank, each weekend?

To be fair, you'd have to bump this against how many of those people didn't know there was actually going to be a trophy ceremony. If one has somehow managed to go the whole day (or at least the end of the day) without speaking with another, more experienced racer, then one could feasibly not even be aware there was an awards ceremony...especially if not in the main garage area.

2. If there was no novice class would we be having this discussion?

Yup - we'd totally be having a discussion about the (lack of) trophies in novice if there was no novice class. Smartest question of the year.

[butcher bergs]

There certainly are other factors contributing to that...but Bergs you must be able to see that no "trophies" when they are expected could be a factor too, at least going forward, while NV is still in existance.

We've hung out in person, I think you have a general idea about me that I'm not a tool...but even I second guessed whether to come back for Round 2 after finding out that LRRS was doing nothing for the newbs. Yes, that was a selfish thought...and yes, those thoughts were relatively fleeting...but they're still in the back of my mind. If it weren't for the friends I already have at the track, and those I hope to make, I wouldn't be packing my bags tomorrow. Being a HUGE cheapass though, it's tough to swallow getting nothing for something.

I think the difference between our respective standpoints here, Bill, is that I personally am more concerned with results rather than rewards as I make my way to the EX ranks. Yes, I will gracefully accept the awards that are made available to me along the way however none of those awards really matter to me. Maybe it's a bit of a hardened standpoint but in my short list of overall racing goals, none of them are to have a slew of NV and AM trophies to reflect back on. My drive is based on acheiving an award for placing well in an Expert race then expanding on that. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't but my view point is that everything else to get there is nothing more than a learning experience.

[Doc]

No one gives a crap what your personal motivation was for getting into or continuing to race. What Pete, et al, is getting at is in general not giving some type of physical recognition to NV podiums does nothing but hurt growth of the series/attendance.:

and what I, et al, am saying is that there should not be recognition if the races are not fair. There WAS recognition last year. There isn't this year. Why don't you all say you want it to go back the way it was so you can get recognition?

Yup - we'd totally be having a discussion about the (lack of) trophies in novice if there was no novice class. Smartest question of the year.

So you see my point.

[Io-bot]

I think the difference between our respective standpoints here, Bill, is that I personally am more concerned with results rather than rewards as I make my way to the EX ranks. Yes, I will gracefully accept the awards that are made available to me along the way however none of those awards really matter to me. Maybe it's a bit of a hardened standpoint but in my short list of overall racing goals, none of them are to have a slew of NV and AM trophies to reflect back on. My drive is based on acheiving an award for placing well in an Expert race then expanding on that. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't but my view point is that everything else to get there is nothing more than a learning experience.

Being a back pack EX runner is nothing to be proud of. Not saying you will be but in general. Some People seem to think black and white plates make you the man at the track... Same people often get passed by lap 6-7 by the AMs from the wave behind.

In the end, racing is something different to all of us. I'm in full support of better competition in ALL the classes and growth of the sport.

[Doc]

Being a back pack EX runner is nothing to be proud of. Not saying you will be but in general. Some People seem to think black and white plates make you the man at the track... Same people often get passed by lap 6-7 by the AMs from the wave behind.

In the end, racing is something different to all of us. I'm in full support of better competition in ALL the classes and growth of the sport.

...and some people want to stay in the lower classes so they can win but they are not competing against the local best. Better competition would mean bumping ASAP.

[smf]

I'm a get deep on yo asses now... Let's say a novice winner has his racing career cut short by a bad accident on the track or even worse he dies. Wouldn't it be nice for him, his wife or his family to have at least some artifact that represented what he got hurt or died for? I mean, at the moment if one of us(novice) were to die doing what he loved, we would have nothing to show for it whatsoever. Maybe that is a bit much, but whatever. It's not going to hurt to have some memorabilia left over for after we are done racing to look at and say... I remember when.... .

having been a NV that was in a very serious accident and probably should've been in ICU (or worse) but somehow walked away (albeit not at all right for quite a while). I gotta say this is a fucking shitty argument to make. I know what you're attempting to say but fuck. your other points were far better, stick with them. this kinda pisses me the fuck off and shows me how little time you've spent at the track. I can't imagine anyone that's actually known someone who died/was in ICU/... or even just been at the track when everything gets dead quiet for too long making this point.
remember when? seriously? fuck that shit. yes, your argument is a bit much (for me). thank you for ensuring I'm actually done with this thread. back to work.

[CBR929RE]

The only thing I've really learned from all this cunting is that there are 2 kinds of racers:

Those that care about getting recognized for their efforts (boohoohoo)

And those that only give a fuck about being faster than whoever's in front of them.

Im thankful to be in the second class, if you will. 8 pages of worthless babble...

but you gotta admit this has gone 9 pages now and has remained a pretty civil discussion. might be a first in the history of the internet.

this is the NV GTO race from the last round, I don't see any of these bikes to be a HW, and you're one of them

1 331 NV Babaian, Brett 01:27.927 35 35 2007 Honda CBR600RR
2 603 NV Newton, Michael 01:38.298 30 30 2001 Suzuki GSX-R600
3 826 NV Parker, Mark 26 26 2006 Yamaha YZF-R6

yeah but the rulebook defines GTO as unlimited displacement for AM/EX. doesn't say what it is for NV. But I plead stupidity as I didn't know the difference when I signed up. And I didn't know who was in what race so I just beat everyone on track

I offered Post-Its and Barry was the only taker so far.



What I'm not grasping the concept of is how the reward of a race license isn't enough of an acheivement to want to progress to a level where some sort of material recognition will always exist....that being AM and moreso EX.

In other words, "Congrats, Novice, here's your competition license. Your next award will come during your first AM win. Until then please continue to hone your racing skills."

The LRRS NV will be a perpetual gray area since the NV plates aren't good anywhere but LRRS. That alone, in my mind, sends the message that it is not a class that is really requiring trophies to begin with since the plates aren't honored elsewhere in CCS other than LRRS. Again, I felt this way even during my time in Novice.

don't get me wrong while I will be somewhat proud of a NV "trophy" I will be a lot more proud of yellow plates. I'm actually still kinda mad at myself I couldn't run the times I was doing last year at a relaxed pace. Maybe this weekend I'll be able to straighten myself out and achieve my big NV goal.

Brian, I will laminate your Post-It free of charge.

wtf, I beat him. mine better be laminated too

Honestly, I think some of us would get faster quicker if we had someone to chase and watch...


Thanks man... I might consider continuing to race then.
This thread really got us all over-thinking the issue... I mean after my 1st race the last thing on my mind was a trophy. I was just glad to have completed the thing... I went back to the pits and it wasn't until later on that one of the guys asked me if I got my "wood" that I even thought about it. I actually don't care at all and just want to get faster, but I don't see any hurt in having them.

hell I knew there was a ceremony but it didn't even dawn on me to go to it. It wasn't until I saw some people in the garages getting some hardware that I thought about it. Its not gonna stop me from being there this weekend. I need the track time to stay ahead of you.

and what I, et al, am saying is that there should not be recognition if the races are not fair. There WAS recognition last year. There isn't this year. Why don't you all say you want it to go back the way it was so you can get recognition?



So you see my point.

it not being fair is just your opinion. the only part that I see as unfair is the skill level of the rider. its not fair to put a guy running 45s up against someone running 28s. but that's entirely the fault of the rider. the bikes are similar so LRRS has made it fair. Sure you can subdivide them more like it was in the past but then you're gonna have a shitload of 1-2 person races and that's just stupid.

[Io-bot]

...and some people want to stay in the lower classes so they can win but they are not competing against the local best. Better competition would mean bumping ASAP.

A "bump" doesn't automatically make you a better rider... 5 AMs competing for 1st doing 17s is better in my eyes than the same 5 competing for 15th as just 5 more EXs.

Your same argument can be made for the top local guys not moving to AMA sooner/faster.

[daviid]

This is just like there not being anymore Amatuer Championships... You are not a "Champion" of anything until you are in the premier class. Right?

so your saying someone who wins a moto3(125) or moto2(250) championship is not a champion of anything because they didnt win the premier motogp championship?

some people intend to race 1 class/level a year and finish what they started. the argument of people bumping doesnt show a true championship doesnt even work really. you can have fast guys in expert who show up only for money rounds and never show up again. they could potentially offset the championship for people who raced every race.

noun /ˈCHampēənˌSHip/ 
championships, plural

A contest for the position of champion in a sport, often involving a series of games or matches

The position or title of the winner of such a contest

The vigorous support or defense of someone or something

Someone who has won first place in a competition

[Doc]

it not being fair is just your opinion. the only part that I see as unfair is the skill level of the rider. its not fair to put a guy running 45s up against someone running 28s. but that's entirely the fault of the rider. the bikes are similar so LRRS has made it fair. Sure you can subdivide them more like it was in the past but then you're gonna have a shitload of 1-2 person races and that's just stupid.

If all the novices feel that way then so be it.

[Doc]

A "bump" doesn't automatically make you a better rider... 5 AMs competing for 1st doing 17s is better in my eyes than the same 5 competing for 15th as just 5 more EXs.

Your same argument can be made for the top local guys not moving to AMA sooner/faster.

The AMA argument is stupid. This is club racing. Many of the fast guys are too old for AMA. Again this is a club league. It is like saying the local bowlers in a league near your house all have aspirations of PBA.

IMHO 5 new Amatuers bumping to Expert would make them faster and grow the sport because you wouldn't have the same 3 guys in Amatuer getting the trophies.

[Doc]

so your saying someone who wins a moto3(125) or moto2(250) championship is not a champion of anything because they didnt win the premier motogp championship?

some people intend to race 1 class/level a year and finish what they started. the argument of people bumping doesnt show a true championship doesnt even work really. you can have fast guys in expert who show up only for money rounds and never show up again. they could potentially offset the championship for people who raced every race.

It was posed as a question for a reason Daviid.

[Io-bot]

The AMA argument is stupid. This is club racing. Many of the fast guys are too old for AMA. Again this is a club league. It is like saying the local bowlers in a league near your house all have aspirations of PBA.

IMHO 5 new Amatuers bumping to Expert would make them faster and grow the sport because you wouldn't have the same 3 guys in Amatuer getting the trophies.

Exactly... This is club racing! People race on different levels for different personal reasons. Not everyone is cut out to do 1:12s around Loudon. Each class should be a stepping stone where you learn something other than JUST how to get a faster lap time.

As for the AMA argument you're right, i don't know enough about the advancement into AMA but I know a few of our local heros have taken a stab at it... Even if they are "too old"

[nt650hawk]

3. Isn't the point of the new novice class to get people out of novice ASAP?

Eric has touched upon this.

NO, It is to acclimate people into racing and make the first time riders comfortable about not being buzzes at 15,20,25 seconds a lap faster. This provides a better environment for learning how to go faster. Especially for the ones that may never attended a track day or turned a competitive lap. AGAIN this NV Program/Group is about bringing the riders up to speed. Like training wheels on a bike. We all started somewhere and has a whole lot of support starting off.

Dictionary.com
What is the definition of RACE? Any contest or competition, especially to achieve superiority:

Lets recognize that achievement. Hell even if it is just to stand on the 1-2-3 box and have a picture taken. Maybe they might make the NHMS webpage. You know where else pictures pop up? Then they get plastered all over Facebook to show all their friends,family, and god know who else.


DOC you mention Below COMPETITION here you go.....

What is the definition of COMPETITION? a contest for some prize, honor, or advantage.

That is all some of us would like to bestow onto those, even NV that have achieved some kind of success.

When I started, It was made clear to me by friends, teammates and fellow racers that the Novice class didn't mean shit and I should bump ASAP. Sure the competition was fun and the trophys were cool... Once in Amatuer I was told that the "real racers" were Experts and I should bump ASAP, so I did. That was back when the Novice class was just the same as the others. It isn't now.

I know I did not tell you that!!! I know others did. I was more interested in your constant time and fast laps. I also know that you had the "GET OUT OF DODGE" mentality as a NV and as a AM. That was you decision. Which is fine if you wanted to go that route. You were also trying to get that wood for that one day, that one race instance. Others around you were getting them and you wanted it too.

How about you give them reduced race entry fees or some other incentive?

I'm not going to speak for Eric, But I think something was/is in the works.

[csmutty]

I think the difference between our respective standpoints here, Bill, is that I personally am more concerned with results rather than rewards as I make my way to the EX ranks. Yes, I will gracefully accept the awards that are made available to me along the way however none of those awards really matter to me. Maybe it's a bit of a hardened standpoint but in my short list of overall racing goals, none of them are to have a slew of NV and AM trophies to reflect back on. My drive is based on acheiving an award for placing well in an Expert race then expanding on that. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't but my view point is that everything else to get there is nothing more than a learning experience.

Ok this isn't about you. Most people think trophies are cool. Therefore it would help novice attendance. So they should have them. Like seriously how can you argue not to have them?

[OreoGaborio]

and what I, et al, am saying is that there should not be recognition if the races are not fair.

And I think we've already blown the theory about the races not being fair out of the water just by showing you the results.

As someone who races an "underdog bike" I'd think you'd know as well as any that it's not the machine that matters in racing, it's the rider.... ESPECIALLY in Novice.

Drop that angle already. All it's doing is making us practice the definition of insanity.

[OreoGaborio]

but you gotta admit this has gone 9 pages now and has remained a pretty civil discussion. might be a first in the history of the internet.

I actually somewhat agree... it got a little snarky at times (yes, including me), but even the part where Chipper got on me, incinuating that I'm only in it for the recognition, the fancy paint & sponsors because I think Novices should get some kind of recognition for their performance, I didn't fire back (and don't really plan to, because at the end of the day, I know it's not something he'd say to me in person... not because he's a coward, but because I know he's got more respect than that and it's the keyboard talking, not him.)

[butcher bergs]

Ok this isn't about you. Most people think trophies are cool. Therefore it would help novice attendance. So they should have them. Like seriously how can you argue not to have them?

Never said it was about me and I never said trophies aren't "cool". I stated my thoughts as well as viewpoint and how I have generated my opinion based on that.




Like seriously....

[Chippertheripper]

That wasn't directed at you Pete. Srsly.

[OreoGaborio]

That wasn't directed at you Pete. Srsly.

k... being one of those guys with a fancy paint job & list of sponsors, didn't seem like it at the time, but I believe ya.

btw, I edited my post above multiple times before I saw this response... not sure which version you read.

[Chippertheripper]

I saw the "passive aggressive" one. My post was mostly about those guys around that care more about that sort of superficial bs than racing, or give off that vibe. Along with that goes the constant pursuit of the next class plates, just so they can say they're ams or ex's, catch my drift? It's disgusting, really.