Tyr Sox?

[Nazo]

I think I just want to buy into the hype, so I can justifying not needing to buy new tires this race weekend

Good info Dave.

[s a x m a n]

so I have a question

i currently running pilot power sports and have done three track days and a 4th on the 23rd on this one set.

I guess that I'm running around mid .25-.27s ... they have held up well. I have heard that I will notice a huge difference with DOT race ... will I get the same amount of track time out of the power race while running the same times (lets say without tire warmers, but apparently it doesn't matter ... i'm just so confused)?

[Awesome]

How do you know your lap times at the trackdays? 25's are not a slow pace by any stretch. I was told during my untimed trackdays by a couple people 'dude...you're doing like 25's', and after spedning half a season racing, I will tell you I certainly was nowhere near 25s.

[Karaya One]

Chris - all I can tell you is what I know. If you feel better, run those warmers.

Just keep an open mind.

When you spent the $300-$450.00 for warmers, was it really justified?

This is all I'm trying to say. They do have a place in the pits, but I think they are wayyyy overvalued in terms of what people think they can do as opposed to what they really accomplish.

[s a x m a n]

Originally posted by hessogood
How do you know your lap times at the trackdays?

*no comment*

[Paul_E_D]

In Canada, it is uncommon to see tire warmers at club races at all!

I didn't use them until my second season, and then only as Dave said, 20-30 minutes BEFORE riding. Never after.

I can't say I really notice a big difference. You get a warm up lap, so it's not like you throw it into T1 on cold tires!

I'd say they are a luxury, not a necessity.

I also have no need to "scuff" my tires. I'll throw it into T1 on a shiny set of slicks if I miss the warm-up lap. (That's the ONLY time I'd say I NEED warmers)

[s a x m a n]

for the longest time I was under the impression that it was only worth getting DOTs if you have a set of warmers to prolong their life ... this apparently seems to not be the case ...

hmm ... maybe some dot race tires for oct? (=

[Karaya One]

Saxman - Pilot Sports OR Pilot Powers?

I can't tell you if you are ready for DOT race tires - only you know.

If you are stressing the street tires, chewing them up and making a mess of them and just feel they are holding you back, make the jump.

In my opinion!!! - if you are doing 25's and lower, it is time for race tires.

Yes, the street Powers will go faster than 25's, but they will not last.

Try the Power Race then, or Pirelli or whatever makes you happy and not full of drama like some other place on the 'net.

Think about your race program, your goals and then make the decision.

[Karaya One]

Saxman - warmers were NEVER designed to prolong life. They just warm-up the tires. That's it.

[McBiggity]

Originally posted by Karaya One
Saxman - warmers were NEVER designed to prolong life. They just warm-up the tires. That's it.

hence the name- "tire warmers"

makes sense to me

[R7]

Originally posted by hessogood
If you look at lap times the first lap of most novice racers is way slower than the laps they'll run during the race. That first lap will get the tires up to temp pretty well. However I would not hammer into the holeshot if I did not have warmers on my tires.
.

The first lap is always slower, keep in mind you are starting from a standing start on the grid and not ripping down the front at 100+ mph like every other lap

I'm pretty sure the guys keeping the warmers on all day are not running them at 100% heating? They have the adjustable thermostats and are used to prevent a full heat cycle and may only stay about 100 degrees until they are turned up before the race?
Some people also leave them on and not plugged in to prevent the sun from heat cycling as well?

Who knows what to beleive nowadays. I've heard conflicting stories from all three tire people at the track, all of which goes against what Dave is saying? Could it be they want to sell more tires?

[s a x m a n]

Originally posted by Karaya One
Saxman - Pilot Sports OR Pilot Powers?

I can't tell you if you are ready for DOT race tires - only you know.

If you are stressing the street tires, chewing them up and making a mess of them and just feel they are holding you back, make the jump.

In my opinion!!! - if you are doing 25's and lower, it is time for race tires.

Yes, the street Powers will go faster than 25's, but they will not last.

Try the Power Race then, or Pirelli or whatever makes you happy and not full of drama like some other place on the 'net.

Think about your race program, your goals and then make the decision.

my question is more of wear on the tire ... will I find the amount of wear comparible?

[Karaya One]

Mark - we ALWAYS want to sell more tires!!!

My experience in the technical issues is ONLY with Michelin, however a lot of what I draw upon is just years of being around race bikes.

Miles may have different thoughts concerning his Corsa's, etc...

All I'm saying is look at this with an open mind.

This is not a Michelin / Dunlop / Pirelli fight nor is it to convince you to ride Michelin.

I'm only relaying what Michelin recently talked about with warmers, and how they were being used on the current generation Power Race's.

Dunlop may look at it very differently, and that fine. But - analizing some very simple data leads me to believe what Michelin points out is so simple its makes perfect sense.

[Karaya One]

Saxman - at your times the Power Race's will last longer.

[R7]

Originally posted by Karaya One
Mark - we ALWAYS want to sell more tires!!!

I didn't quite word that rite, let me explain what I was thinking better. Are they trying to lead the racers into thinking they need new tires before they really do? This is not directed towards any one tire person at the track, like I said, they all seem to say very different things about this and other issues when asked at the track? It always seems to come down to the heat cycles and not the tread wear, the warmers that keep the tires at a constant temp all day keeps the number of heat cycles down?

[tiller]

good thread.

everyone makes some very good points.

I am relatively new to using tire warmers (this is my first season)

I feel that in regards to street tires, tire warmers are a very bad idea (I speak from experiance) street tires do not like to be that hot, especially when your pushing on a track day.

However DOT Race tires seem to work fine cold but as others have stated work better after a couple laps. I can tell the difference when the tires are up to temp with warmers and when you go out and they are cold. I have also ridden DOT Race tires on the street and feel that the grip is fine. Keep in mind most of us dont push on the street like we do on the track.

now as far as the tyre soxs go, I cant speak from experiance but I have heard that they do the job just fine but the overall build quality is crap. If you are in the habit of baby-ing all your tools and equipment aka wipe off your impact gun with a diaper to get the oil off then I would say tyre soxs would be fine for you. If you are the type of person who likes to use your tools and equipment and not worry then get something else. I own a set of the standard Chicken Hawk Tire Warmers and I take very good care of them but I dont by any means freak out when they get dirty.

Jamie, instead of switching to a DOT Race tire would you consider a half track half street tire such as the Pirelli Corsa or the Michelin Sport Cups

[Karaya One]

Mark - I can't speak for anyone but Motorace.

We leave tire decisions up to the rider. We are happy to offer advice, and will look at a tire to see how it is wearing, behaving, etc.

But we will never insist you buy a new tire.

I don't know what the other retailers do at the track in regards to their tire dealings - it's really none of my business.

What I never get a clear definition of is what excatly is a heat cycle? What are the ramifications of too few or too many?

I sell race tires. LOTS of them to dealers and riders across the country. I NEVER get heat cycle questions. I get questions about compounds, temps to use them in, durability, etc. NEVER " how many heat cycles will it last?"

A tire works until it doesn't work anymore. This is it.

Jeff Wood uses his D208GP to push himself to do an 11 during a LRRS event. At some point, the tire tells him " I have no more 11's left in me". This is it. The tire passed its peak and is now decreasing in performance. Now, someone tell me how putting that tire in a warmer for three hours will get that 11 back?

I work for Sto. Many of you see him at the track. The man is a fountain of knowledge and the heat cycle question always gets him going. And he has 30 years of Michelin experience behind him!

Why would other tire guys push this issue? I have no idea. Why would heat cycles kill a tire? I have no idea.

Are heat cycles even relevant? This is the question.

Is tread wear relevant? Not really unless it rains. The current crop of DOT race tires would be very poor street tires, and the PR1-5 Power Race cannot even be run on the street even thought it carries the DOT tag.

Again, none of this was meant to switch anyones allegiance. If your Dunlop guy says to roast that rubber and puts forth a convincing argument, do it. His tire may like it!

But, there is enough evidence to suggest that a lot of people waste money on warmers when they really aren't ever needed.

[OreoGaborio]

Dave, your imput is greatly valued... but i wanna run somethin by you to give you an idea about my perspective as an aspiring amateur

The guys like the Woods brothers, Scotty Greenwood etc etc, basically the guys that can burn through a set of tires in a single race are a totally different breed of racer than the guys that are just getting into the scene such as myself. I know for a fact that once i finally get on whichever EX500 i buy, the tires that are on there are gonna last quite a number of laps.

THIS is the scenario where heat cycling comes into play.

Now i know that tires can talk to ya, i know a tire only has so much in it before it's toast... but someone that's on a low power bike turning 30's is gonna have those tires for quite a while & it's gonna fade alot slower than if they were on a Greenwood bike turning 10-15's.

This is the case I'm gonna be in once i get an EX & the situation i THINK most of us are wondering about... the wear rate will be slow enough that it's gonna go through a much higher number of heat cycles, and we all have heard that heat cycling hardens the ruber, decreasing it's performance. In this case, wouldn't using tire warmers between races to decrease the number of heat cycles help prolong the gripping ability of the tire?

[Paul_E_D]

In my experience, no. I ran one set of michelins on my EX my first year. No warmers and I ran em to the cords. Traction did not tail off until they were seriously deformed. How many heat cycles? I don't think it mattered...

Now tires last me a lot less time. I put 200 miles in on my last set (2 weekends), and they went off with tons of rubber left on the carcass. How did I know they were done? 2 wheel drifts in turn 10, some rear slides in 3 and a HUUUUGE slide in T2. I would have surely highsided, but the front pushed after the rear stepped out and it brought the bike back in line gentle enough that I stayed on. Into the trash they go.

Now, I don't race on a tire past 24 laps or so. I rotate it to practice duty... That's just because I want maximum traction, not because they are done.

[Karaya One]

Pete, to use your EX500 as an example it would be mounted with Pilot Power Race Soft tires since that is all that is available in your sizes for your bike.

This is a tire that will heat up very quickly and last a long time on your bike since it is so light and under-powered.

I'll go right back to the analogy that our Michelin tech used - if the brownies are done, do you put them back in the oven?

I sold Ken Condon the EXACT same set for his bike - MuZ Skorpion. Two race weekends, two trackdays, no warmers and he runs 23's. They still look and work great. If anything, they are still showing what the limits of his suspension are right now!

Paul said it best - no!

IMO - a lot of mythology is built up about race tires and warmers. For a track day tire like the standard Power Race, Michelin knows what this tire will be subjected to and design it accordingly. This includes multiple cycles of warming and cold.

Check your air pressure, keep the tires clean and free from debris. That's it!

Pete - in the end there are too many variables. I can't tell you how long your tires will last. No one can. I will say that IMO warmers will not make them last any longer.

[OreoGaborio]

[a13x]

Pete, with the times you'll be running.. them shitz will last you ALL YEAR!

[Nazo]

Originally posted by a13x
Pete, with the times you'll be running.. them shitz will last you ALL YEAR!

+1

[Ken C]

From my experience, tire warmers are a nice piece of mind for diving into turn one at the start and allow the first lap of practice to be a "hot" lap.

I race against EX's and when I was a novice I was being beat by two guys who didn't use tire warmers. We were doing 1:27s then. Our first lap at the start of a race was probably a 1:34.

Now that we've moved into the expert class, we all use tire warmers, and our first race laps are 1:29's to 1:27s (with 1:23 to 1:22 lap times). This requires hard driving into turn one where you don't even let off the throttle until turn 2. This is when tire warmers will help.

As far as tire warmer use, I let my tires cool between races and practices, but I let them cool slowly by putting the warmers on, but not plug them in when I come in off the track. I don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt.

Oh, and tire will last at least half a race season at a 1:28 lap time, depending on suspension setup, throttle technique, etc. Paul Duval could get fast times on one set of tires in a season on his EX.

[Green Hornet]

I was looking at Jeff Woods stats...from a dead stop at the starting grid he can turn a 1.15 lap time....

I will say that IMO warmers will not make them last any longer.

That goes against everything I ever heard from tire makers as well as racers.

A tire will only tolerate so many heat cycles before its grip ability gives, be reducing the heat cycles you prolong the life.

Thats the advice that I heard from people in the industry (pro racers, magazines, tire reps, bike mag writters, race school insturctors).