Using reference points to get fast

[The Snowman]

So we don't clog the Novice to Amateur thread, there's a topic that sounded like it was good for discussion:

I was agreeing with Oxx about needing faster riders in front to get faster. Most of the races I did last year, I was at or near the front. (In small fields, but competition makes us try harder.)

My only question is, how do the REALLY fast guys stay out in front?

Reference points. Lots of em.

Not dogging on you personally, Chuck, but if anyone "needs" a rider in front of them in order to produce better lap times those people may want to think about another approach to their race craft.

It's one thing to play "carrot and mule" at a trackday with an instructor...completely different trying to increase your pace in a racing environment while trying to learn how to handle a motorcyle while trying to pass someone while trying to stay within a certain comfort zone......etc

I agree 100% with Paul's suggestion of finding reference points.

Yup. Having a carrot certainly helps tow you along and teach you things if you know what to look for, but the only guaranteed way that you'll STAY fast once the carrot is gone is to have a ton of reference points.

So, with everything you have to during a race, how do you use reference points to get faster? I know they help you to "try" and find the fastest lines, etc... Is there anything else the people running 20's and lower look for?

[OreoGaborio]

Well, for starters....

Brake ON markers
Brake OFF markers
Throttle ON markers
Throttle OFF markers
Shift markers
Turn-in markers
"Flip" markers (L-R or R-L transitions)
Apex markers
Exit markers
"Aim" markers
"Avoid" markers

You should have them all and you should be able to draw them on a map or at least see them in your mind as you do a mental lap around the track.


Experiment by moving one (or two at the most) and see what works.

[Paul_E_D]

Reference points do exactly what the name implies. They don't make you fast, they just help locate you in YOUR frame of reference so that you can make informed decisions. You don't just huck your bike into a corner on an unknown line at an unknown speed. If you try that, you will most certainly crash or come out of the corner slow and scared shitless.

Instead, you build a frame of references that help you get an accurate idea of your speed and trajectory. You use your past experiences to help you decide if you can mae the corner, open the throttle, adjust your line etc.

Once you have built this detailed framework, you can increase your pace by making very small changes in braking and acceleration inputs without taking unknown risks.

[The Snowman]

So, are most of these "automatic" for you? Are they more like an unconscious thing?

I do some of that (thinking, "I have to brake now, etc...), but wondered how much of your thought process goes into it during a race.

[OreoGaborio]

Very well said, Paul!

Chuck, my mind is pretty much 100% occupied with three things... reading the riders around me and hitting my marks.

[darkduc7]

Reference points do exactly what the name implies. They don't make you fast, they just help locate you in YOUR frame of reference so that you can make informed decisions. You don't just huck your bike into a corner on an unknown line at an unknown speed. If you try that, you will most certainly crash or come out of the corner slow and scared shitless.

Instead, you build a frame of references that help you get an accurate idea of your speed and trajectory. You use your past experiences to help you decide if you can mae the corner, open the throttle, adjust your line etc.

Once you have built this detailed framework, you can increase your pace by making very small changes in braking and acceleration inputs without taking unknown risks.

well said, i need to do so much more of this!

[Chippertheripper]

Subscribed.


Oops, sorry, didn't realize there was a laptime threshold to post in this thread.

[Paul_E_D]

These do become somewhat automatic after say 10,000 laps. But there's is no shortcut to building the frame. It takes years. The good news is that once you do it once, you can do it quickly at new tracks. Do the work, reap the benefits. Skip the work, and struggle for your whole career. Start drawing you mind map now away from the track (no peeking at pictures or videos), and you'll see where you are lacking pretty easily.

[brady]

my mind is pretty much 100% occupied with three things... reading the riders around me and hitting my marks.

1.....2.....

[butcher bergs]

Chuck, my mind is pretty much 100% occupied with three things... reading the riders around me and hitting my marks.

What's the 3rd?


IMO, a reference point should be something you KNOW isn't gonig to move on you. A rock on the ground is not one of them, neither is a cone.

Find things such as markings on the pavement, features in the curbing, something you notice in your peripheral vision, dotted lines, etc.

I suggest doing a track walk following a trackday or race practice because you don't wanna be in a race session searching for reference points and more or less target fixating on that while the guy in front of you is parking it in a corner.

[Pigman]

Some one posted an article from Eric W. and its all you need to read on reference points...

[OreoGaborio]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9700/5.0.0.979 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

my mind is pretty much 100% occupied with three things... reading the riders around me and hitting my marks.

1.....2.....

Yup. Interpret that however you want

A - those two add up to three things
2 - the rest is insignificant
D - the first rule about third thing club...
Blue - other

[Doc]

So, are most of these "automatic" for you? Are they more like an unconscious thing?

I do some of that (thinking, "I have to brake now, etc...), but wondered how much of your thought process goes into it during a race.

Not automatic and changing the faster you get. 2 words Track Walk.

Let us take turn 1. I used to brake at the 4 board and think "I need to turn now"

Then it was "Let's try the low line and brake at the 3 board"

Then it was lets aim for the orange box after hitting the little crack at the middle of the track near the 2 board, good stab of brakes there, trailing off..., coming down closer to the flagger station and lining up with the new pavement "chute" in 1.

Or in 3.

Line up with the cones, brake at the first cone, throw it in somewhere and pray.

Squeeze the tank, brake 2 cones in, trail it off, set up, turn in at the 2nd to last cone, look for the beach, knee over rumble strips, transition, Look to the 4 cone, lil power, tranistion, aim at left of 4 cone full power...

My point is that I started with none and I bet I have about 1/2 of what Pete and Paul have for points. Eric gave me too many to write down when i took the advanced school. That alone was worth the cost of the course.

[Yknot]

I know I don't have near the experience to be offering any advice but I really found that timing a "mental lap" helped me determine where I need some more reference points. I found a couple spots I thought I knew pretty well that I couldn't visualize clearly.

[Ken C]

A lot of good info here.

Reference points are the hurdle many riders struggle with. Some riders are resistant to establishing precise RPs and prefer to ride by feel. But, riding by feel can only take you so far. Once RPs are well-defined and practiced, then they become an integral part of how you ride. That's when RPs can reside mostly in your subconscious so you can get on with the real business of racing.

FYI, if you want to learn firsthand from Paul or Pete or Gino (or me) about this stuff, sign up for personalized instruction.
Persoanlized Instruction with Tony's Track Days

[Paul_E_D]

What's the 3rd?


IMO, a reference point should be something you KNOW isn't gonig to move on you. A rock on the ground is not one of them, neither is a cone.

Find things such as markings on the pavement, features in the curbing, something you notice in your peripheral vision, dotted lines, etc.

I suggest doing a track walk following a trackday or race practice because you don't wanna be in a race session searching for reference points and more or less target fixating on that while the guy in front of you is parking it in a corner.

Cones are fine as long as you do a sighting lap and verify that your cones are in the right places. Most tracks have painted marks to locate the cones.

Cracks and marks on the pavement are good as long as they don't draw your attention down and in closer to your front wheel. I actually gave up using cracks and track marks unless they where on and uphill section of track or in my field of view way up ahead. I do think learning all the cracks at loudon helped me though. Just had to give up using a few of them.

[The Snowman]

While doing a track walk, is it better to walk the race line to get the reference points from the correct angles?

[Ken C]

While doing a track walk, is it better to walk the race line to get the reference points from the correct angles?

Yes, you should get a look at the RPs from the point of view of the correct line. But, IMO a track walk is not the way to select RPs. It is a way to get a closer look at them, but you need to identify and then refine reference points while at speed.

[FireboltEric_MA]

I would think the race line would change some, as you get faster.... So would said RP's....

["Dangerous" Dan K]

Cones are fine as long as you do a sighting lap and verify that your cones are in the right places. Most tracks have painted marks to locate the cones.

Cracks and marks on the pavement are good as long as they don't draw your attention down and in closer to your front wheel. I actually gave up using cracks and track marks unless they where on and uphill section of track or in my field of view way up ahead. I do think learning all the cracks at loudon helped me though. Just had to give up using a few of them.

I remember one race someone took out all the cones into T3. I was a little lost going in the first lap, but there was a yellow flag and I was off pace so it didn't matter. When the CWs put the cones back, they didn't put the 2nd to last cone (which is my tip in point) in the right place. I was a mess that turn for the rest of the race. I ran wide, I hit the curb, I did about everything wrong you can do there without crashing. Showed on my lap times too. Funny thing is, it looked right. I can't imagine it was more than a few inches off, a foot max.

This is in no way a slight on the CWs, I'm sure putting them back mid-race after someone just flew off track into where they were now standing was a bitch. Just a comment about how a cone being a little off can really screw with ya, hence my preferring to use fixed markers where I can. That said, I still use the cones for 3 & 4.

[OreoGaborio]

Here's a lengthy conversation I had on another board regarding reference points and other things with Misti, an instructor with the California Superbike School... Sorry it got so wordy.

I'll just copy & paste so it's here instead of linking to the thread. Feel free to discuss.

Having lots & lots of reference points is about as important as the oxygen we breath... The more you have, the better. But remember, they're not necessarily "do" points and you don't have to consciously think about each one. They can be little "back of the brain" landmarks that just help let you know you're on the right track.

With that said, it's definitely a big help to have established markers for gas off, brake on, brake off, gas on, gas wide open (don't "force" this one if you're slightly off line or something ), shift up, shift down, turn-in, apex, turn-out, etc, etc. Even approximate markers for where you move your butt from side to side can help you be more consistent.

Note: In MOST cases, the closer the better when it comes to getting your gas off and brake on markers, and your brake off and gas on markers... the ultimate goal is to have them virtually overlap one another and blend into eachother. This will help smooth out weight transitions and help you get the most out of your traction circle.


Side note: A few weeks ago, I must have pointed out at least 50 reference points to a group of track day attendees as we did a track walk around the 1.6 mile NHMS & I probably could have pointed out another 50 if I had time (of course, NHMS is FULL of little cracks, seams, scrapes, etc... TONS AND TONS of surface & track-side features to help you out. That's the one huge benefit to having "old" pavement ).

I haven't done it in a while, but trying to mark ALL of the little things that you see onto a blank track map is a great exercise. You might be surprised at how much or how little you remember without actually beeing out there on the track

Some really good points here about RP's and about how many are usually out there and available for use. You mention that the more RP's you have the better, while I think that having a lot of RP's is a good thing I wonder if there becomes a point where you have too many??

You also suggest writing those RP's on a blank track map and that is an awesome idea. I hate doing it personally but Keith makes me all the time and it really really works!

SVXR650 also suggests having a camera or video camera to help with track recollection and that is another good idea.

When marking out RP's on a track what do you think is the minimum you should have for each corner, and do you think you could ever have too many???

Misti

I'm a firm believer of the more you have, the better... The sky is the limit.

BUT!!! Like I said above: "they're not necessarily "do" points and you don't have to consciously think about each one. They can be little "back of the brain" landmarks that just help let you know you're on the right track."

What all this boils down to is track familiarity. The more intimate one becomes with their surroundings, the less you have to consciously think about it.

Like you (I'm sure), I've got thousands of laps at my home track under my belt and a good number of track walks so I know it pretty well. We could both probably walk around our home tracks in our minds and recall a couple hundred reference points without having to walk around the track again and physically see them. Do I consciously think about them when I'm racing? No. Absolutely not. Am I aware of them when I'm racing? To some degree, sure.

I don't think I could possibly ever have "too many" reference points and I'm no more special or more talented than anyone else here... our brains are just phenomenally adapted to that sort of "familiar information processing". Once the reference points get ingrained in there, they're in there. You don't HAVE to think about them. They just "are".

So really, the more you have, the more time you can spend thinking about other things.



Maybe?

I think that if you don't try to look at all of your RP's or get too caught up in looking at lots of stuff on track than having an unlimited amount is probably a good thing. I just know that some riders tend to try to look at everything on the track when they are riding and they end up getting too busy or too confused.

We usually say that the minimum required for each turn is 3 (one for turn in, apex and exit). Of course you would also need a brake marker and maybe a few more location RP's in between.

I wish I had a home track where I had thousands of miles around it I never spent much time at one track only or doing just track days where I could get some really good practice time. This is one of the reasons why I feel reference points is such an important skill because when you go from one track to the next and only have a day or two to try to learn it before attempting to qualify then you really have to learn things FAST.

Drawing the track and learning to find Reference Points quickly for me was THE only way I was able to qualify on a track that I had never ridden on before.

Do you have a method for learning a new track quickly? Are there things that you might do (besides drawing the track, walking the track or using a camera) that would help you learn quicker?

Misti

Oh yeah, you really can't get too tied up in looking at each and every reference point if you've got a ton of them. If I looked at every one of mine I'd get nothin done! :p You gotta build the "rp catalogue" quickly and efficiently in a way that it helps you get around the track, but doesn't hurt you by getting you too distracted and overwhelmed :dizzy:

But like you said; braking, turn-in, apex and exit are obviously by far the main ones to be concerned (with which is why there's usually cones out there to give you approximate locations of each) and having additional ones is definitely important to building consistency, especially as you get faster.


I've ridden at tracks elsewhere (NJ, NY, and VA), but having done track days & races at NHMS for the better part of 6 years now, Loudon is the one I have the most experience at BY FAR.

But I've also been in the position a couple of times where I had to teach at a track that I've never seen before that day...

To prepare I'll talk with others who have been there, check out track maps & watch whatever videos I can find of the place... AMA or club races if I can find it or just track day on-board stuff on Youtube. Of course I keep in mind that what lines they're taking may or may not be "right" but it certainly does enough to help me prep at least a little and get a better idea of what the track is like.

Before the first session of the day the staff gets together and does a few follow-the-leader laps of our own, riding nose-to-tail at an easy pace that allows us to look around, see the track in detail and note where the line is on key parts of the track.

When it comes to certain sections, sometimes I like to pick fixed points off in the distance away from the track surface to aim at, like buildings, tall trees, tire walls, etc.

Nothing out of the ordinary.


But actually, what really helps me most is the Ben Spies method

That's the key, right there........ seriously. It really helped me a ton at Monticello North (Dolpin) and NJMP Thunderbolt (Dodo bird) and I now have over 600 key chains.

[butcher bergs]

Cones are fine as long as you do a sighting lap and verify that your cones are in the right places. Most tracks have painted marks to locate the cones.

Cracks and marks on the pavement are good as long as they don't draw your attention down and in closer to your front wheel. I actually gave up using cracks and track marks unless they where on and uphill section of track or in my field of view way up ahead. I do think learning all the cracks at loudon helped me though. Just had to give up using a few of them.

I hear you, Paul, however I don't agree with using cones since there are cases where they are tagged by riders and end up moving some distance in any given direction. Not sure if the T2 layout will be the same as last year but that turn is one example of people tagging cones where the cones move. When the new pavement was layed this proved to be a bit of an issue at one of our trackdays where people were cutting the corner. It was like the cones had legs. You'd come thru once and be fine, the very next lap "WHOA! Who moved that cone 4 feet up and out??!?"

As far as the cracks and such, in the past I've explained to riders that they don't want to look directly at their reference points rather use their peripheral vision which, with time and practice, allows them to essentially see two places at one time while allowing them to keep their eyes up and looking forward.

I've found that yes, riders naturally slow their pace at first in order to readjust to the new approach. Some people do one track session and get frustrated because they've had to scrub all their precious speed in order to practice something new and that is usually quickly followed by them riding like crap all over again as a result of being comfortable with previous habits that don't include reference points.

On the flipside, others tend to be much more patient and actually get comfortable with using their newfound vision within the day. Their riding chages dramatically in that they become smooth, predictable and very quick by day's end.

Realizing that everone is different, what works for some might not work for others. That said, I know the method I use certainly is not gospel.

[CBR929RE]

Subscribed.


Oops, sorry, didn't realize there was a laptime threshold to post in this thread.

dude Chuck started it, the threshold is pretty liberal.

A lot of good info here.

Reference points are the hurdle many riders struggle with. Some riders are resistant to establishing precise RPs and prefer to ride by feel. But, riding by feel can only take you so far. Once RPs are well-defined and practiced, then they become an integral part of how you ride. That's when RPs can reside mostly in your subconscious so you can get on with the real business of racing.

FYI, if you want to learn firsthand from Paul or Pete or Gino (or me) about this stuff, sign up for personalized instruction.
Persoanlized Instruction with Tony's Track Days

this is something I keep struggling with. I know I have reference points but for a lot of the turns its hard for me to actually think of them off the top of my head. I wanna get more RPs but for some reason I never seem to actually work on it once on the bike. Maybe racing will help with this, I don't know.

[The Snowman]

Even going as "slow" as I do around NHMS, soe of my reference points have changed. Example, when I used to do 1:30's, I would brake at the 4 board into T1. Now, I'm between the 2 and 3 boards at 1:26's.

What's the limit to how far in a reference point can be? When you hit the pavement?

[Chippertheripper]

dude Chuck started it, the threshold is pretty liberal.

He said he wanted input from guys under 1:20.
I'm just happy to learn I WAS doing the right thing, before somebody told me I was wrong, and needed rp's on track. I'll go back to using the signs up on the walls, trees, and other immovable stuff too. (and braking at the treehouse at the end of the wall)