I may have a downshifting problem

[Duffy]

I was out riding Thursday afternoon. On my way back home I took the highway. As I took the off ramp and was downshifting I ran into a problem. I was in 6th gear, went fine/normal into 5th, and I continued to downshift down to first....but it didnt sound or feel right. Like nothing happened. I had a feeling that maybe I was still in 5th so I slowly released the clutch, sure enough the bike nearly stalled. So back in went the clutch and pounding with my left leg/foot to get the gears down. It went down 1 more gear. I'm running out of room before light at end of ramp. I kept slamming onto gear level till I think I feel it click all the way down. Light turns and I have no issue shifting up to 4th and back down again on regular side roads. So I take it back on highway, back up to top gear. Again I get off highway and it did it again, would not downshift as easily as I'm use to, but not as difficult as first time. I didn't play around with it anymore. I was tired from my ride and I was getting cold. Off the top of anyones head do you know what the problem could be? Maybe loose clutch cable or something? Clutch cable was new beginning of season. I only put 2k miles on it. Gears don't grind. Well, cept going up into second if I have the rpms too high. But I hear that is a common 1st gen R6 clutch problem. I am pretty sure that I had the clutch all the way in and I lifted my foot all the way off then depressed firmly when I was downshifting. I am hoping this sounds like a common problem and its any easy fix. Thanks for your help.

[OreoGaborio]

I have no idea what it is, but I don't see it being caused by a clutch problem... Check everything, just in case, but you should be able to shift up and down w/o the clutch on a bike as long as you roll almost completely off the throttle (not accelerating, not engine braking) so that there's little to no tension between parts inside the transmission.

Check the linkage, make sure NOTHING is binding up between your foot & the engine case.

You're pretty local to me & I've got nothing goin on today. If the rain stops, ride over & I'll take a peek at it for ya.

[butcher bergs]

How is your chain tension? If it's too tight you will have shifting issues.

It's a bike that's a few years old. There could be some crud which has built up around the shift lever pivot area and is preventing the lever from moving freely. Check (with your hands) to see if the lever is moving freely and returning properly.

Not sure if it's the case with your particular bike, but Yamaha has been known to put a return spring inside the motor on the shift shaft which has been known to fall off. Again, check on your particular bike to see if anyone else has experienced this issue.

[Duffy]

Check the linkage, make sure NOTHING is binding up between your foot & the engine case.

You're pretty local to me & I've got nothing goin on today. If the rain stops, ride over & I'll take a peek at it for ya.

I went outside and it looks all clean to me. Thanks for the offer of coming over, I appreciate it. Actually my husband and I are about to go out and buy pumpkins to carve. We are involved in a carving contest where the prize is a TV.

I plan on going on this ride tomorrow http://www.nestreetriders.com/forum/...5-nh-ride.html (11/25 snh ride) if I run into any problems then I'll prolly just peal off and head home.


How is your chain tension? If it's too tight you will have shifting issues.

It's a bike that's a few years old. There could be some crud which has built up around the shift lever pivot area and is preventing the lever from moving freely. Check (with your hands) to see if the lever is moving freely and returning properly.

Not sure if it's the case with your particular bike, but Yamaha has been known to put a return spring inside the motor on the shift shaft which has been known to fall off
My chain didnt feel tight. The shift lever pivot area looked okay. And since the other part is IN the motor section I am unable to check that out. Like I said above, I plan on going on a ride tomorrow so I am going to paying attention to it. If I experience the same problems during ride I'll just head home and decide what I am going to do with bike.

Thanks for your replies

[OreoGaborio]

Are you meeting us at Masconomet HS?

One of us can take a peek at it before we leave & my house is right up the street if we need any tools to make any adjustments. Sounds like everything on the outside is alright though.

[Cheese]

You should be able to shift up from 2nd to 6th and back down from 6th to 2nd on the highway without going below the speed limit. I think that would be safer than troubleshooting on ramps.

Stubborn shifts are sometimes caused by not releasing the shift lever between shifts (perhaps do to a turn in the ramp?)

Did you release the clutch lever between shifts because it almost reads as though you squeezed the clutch lever in 6th and didn't release it until you thought you were in 1st (almost stalling). Coasting?

Plenty of people heading for the ride tomorrow that can give your bike a look before we depart.

[The Snowman]

Did you release the clutch lever between shifts because it almost reads as though you squeezed the clutch lever in 6th and didn't release it until you thought you were in 1st (almost stalling). Coasting?

This was my thoughts, exactly.

It's always better to blip the throttle at the same time you're squeezing the clutch lever, shift down, then release the lever between each gear shift.

[scubasteveRR]

This same thing happens to my bike when I try to switch more that 2 or 3 gears with one clutch lever pull. I can feel it not shifting usually and I just let out the clutch lever and re-clutch and it shifts fine. Sometimes it will happen as I am stopping and I need to roll the bike backwards a hair to get it to shift.

I've been told this is normal for bikes? Now I try to shift only one gear now every clutch pull and it definitley keeps this from happening.

[Danz19899]

ya my zzr did this once or twice when trying to downshift multiple gears without letting the clutch release in each. also the linkage can kinda hit dead spots on bikes that have a few miles on them. my zzr would catch a dead spot in between 6-5 if i tapped the lever instead of pressing it all the way

once it hits that dead spot its kinda bitch to get back into gear

[Cheese]

Mmmmmmmmmm k, I'll bite. Why would anyone drop multiple gears with one clutch lever pull when slowing down? Losing engine braking and losing the ability to accelerate out of trouble seems like a bad idea to me.



I might drop two quickly in preparation for an acceleration but not in a deceleration situation.

[OreoGaborio]

Why would anyone drop multiple gears with one clutch lever pull when slowing down?

cuz they're lazy like me?
cuz they wanna drop from 6th to 3rd to do a wheelie?
cuz they wanna drop from whatever straight to 1st, dump the clutch & back it in?

[Cheese]

cuz they're lazy like me?
cuz they wanna drop from 6th to 3rd to do a wheelie?
cuz they wanna drop from whatever straight to 1st, dump the clutch & back it in.

Huh .. expected more support from a MSF coach.

[OreoGaborio]

Oh I'll give ya support, alright

[Duffy]

Hmmm. Yes, I've always kept clutch level in and just downshifted thru all the gears when stopping at a light. It was how I was taught or more like, thats what I thought everyone else was doing. Use front break, sometimes a little back at same time, clutch in and downshift to come to stop. Never thought to release clutch between each downshift. I mean, if your doing it in unison anyway...why bother releasing between them. I don't like to use engine to slow down (easier/cheaper to replace worn brakes) If clutch in releases transmission from wheel and I'm slowing down to stop in couple yards anyway, whats the difference if I do clutch release in rapid succession? I didn't realize it was the 'wrong' way. Bike never gave me a problem before. I guess I am going to have to learn the proper way. Good to know that it was human error and not mechanical failure. I've never drove a standard transmission car, but when slowing to stop with foot clutch in shift from 5 to 1 without lifting clutch each time? Thought bikes were more forgiving in slipping or whatever. Guess I still have LOTS to learn. Well, my whole riding experience now totals like almost 10k, so I'm still fairly new. My bad. Thanks for cluing me in on my improper clutching technique.

[OreoGaborio]

Ban, no worries... there's really not much difference, but normal practice is to release the clutch lever between shifts.

[The Snowman]

Did you take the MSF?

[Cheese]

I've never drove a standard transmission car, but when slowing to stop with foot clutch in shift from 5 to 1 without lifting clutch each time?

Same issue in a car (standard or automatic). It's considered "coasting" and generally not recommended.

[The Snowman]

Same issue in a car (standard or automatic). It's considered "coasting" and generally not recommended.

Dumb question, but isn't "coasting" with the clutch pulled in bad for the clutch?

Or is that an old wive's tale?

[bigred875]

Hmmm. Yes, I've always kept clutch level in and just downshifted thru all the gears when stopping at a light. It was how I was taught or more like, thats what I thought everyone else was doing. Use front break, sometimes a little back at same time, clutch in and downshift to come to stop. Never thought to release clutch between each downshift. I mean, if your doing it in unison anyway...why bother releasing between them. I don't like to use engine to slow down (easier/cheaper to replace worn brakes) If clutch in releases transmission from wheel and I'm slowing down to stop in couple yards anyway, whats the difference if I do clutch release in rapid succession? I didn't realize it was the 'wrong' way. Bike never gave me a problem before. I guess I am going to have to learn the proper way. Good to know that it was human error and not mechanical failure. I've never drove a standard transmission car, but when slowing to stop with foot clutch in shift from 5 to 1 without lifting clutch each time? Thought bikes were more forgiving in slipping or whatever. Guess I still have LOTS to learn. Well, my whole riding experience now totals like almost 10k, so I'm still fairly new. My bad. Thanks for cluing me in on my improper clutching technique.

your logic sounds good but car transmissions are not like bikes...i'm not an expert so hopefully someone else will chime in but it is my understanding the bike should be moving...

either way you want to get used to down shifting when stopping...if you have to get back on the gas for some reason you want to make sure you are in the right gear..

[scubasteveRR]

Mmmmmmmmmm k, I'll bite. Why would anyone drop multiple gears with one clutch lever pull when slowing down? Losing engine braking and losing the ability to accelerate out of trouble seems like a bad idea to me.



I might drop two quickly in preparation for an acceleration but not in a deceleration situation.

For instance your chillin in 4th gear coming up to turn and you slow down quickly to take the turn but slow down too much for 3rd because a car was coming and you don't want to stop why bother dropping the clutch twice when I can shift from 4th to 2nd and take off when 3rd would have bogged a little bit.

I try not to do this all the time, but some times I'll use it coming of the highway too. Coming into a exit ramp in 6th and slowing down quickly because it's a 25mph ramp with a big turn sometimes I'll just slow it down and drop to 4th.

Not saying this is the correct way but it seems to work for me.

I drive a standard Civic and also use this method and my clutch last 190k so I don't think that this method is hurting the clutch on my car not sure if it would pre-maturely burn out the clutch on a motorcycle but from my understanding a motorcycle's clutch can take more abuse than a car clutch?.

[dontpanic]

Duffy:

Methinks that the gear dogs are not engaging fully with the transmission gears when you're coasting to a stop and trying to shift down. (Likely just the result of simple wear in the transmission.)

Bike transmissions typically have two shafts, and each speed in a transmission has two gears (one on each shaft) that are constantly in contact with one another. One of them is firmly linked to its shaft. The other spins freely on the other shaft.

Dog gears live on the same shafts, and have splines that link them to grooves on the shafts. The key is that the dog gears can slide back and forth, and have teeth (of sorts) going sideways that can link up with the transmission gears. When a dog gear slides sideways and links to its mate, you’ve selected that speed in the transmission, because now both the transmission gears are firmly linked to their shafts (one link is permanent, the other is temporary, via the dog gear).

Worn dog teeth sometimes won’t engage a gear firmly. When you downshift, letting out the clutch will transmit a load to the transmission and cause the dogs to become fully engaged with the gears.

Because a foot-operated shifter can only rotate in one plane, motorcycle transmissions use a shift drum to move forks around inside the cases. It's these forks that shove the dog gears into contact with the transmission gears.

Car transmissions aren't constrained to one dimensional actuation, and can move the forks directly, so they don't need a shift drum. That's why a bike transmission can only go from one gear to the next and a car can go from first to fifth directly.

(Useful link: http://wikicars.org/en/Manual_transmission)

Bigred is right: you should get used to down shifting when stopping. You definitely should always be in the appropriate gear if you have to get back on the gas for some reason.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Saturday night.

[Cheese]

For instance your chillin in 4th gear coming up to turn and you slow down quickly to take the turn but slow down too much for 3rd because a car was coming and you don't want to stop why bother dropping the clutch twice when I can shift from 4th to 2nd and take off when 3rd would have bogged a little bit.

I try not to do this all the time, but some times I'll use it coming of the highway too. Coming into a exit ramp in 6th and slowing down quickly because it's a 25mph ramp with a big turn sometimes I'll just slow it down and drop to 4th.

I'll drop a couple gears at once for the same reason.

Just to be clear, that original poster came off the highway in 6th (55 mph?), pulled in the clutch and intended to roll all the way to the stop sign/light at the end with the clutch lever still pulled. She then stated that she thought this was normal practice. Let's give her a break and agree that this isn't common practice.

[OreoGaborio]

Right... but it's not a carnal sin. (not that you said it was, just don't want Duffles to think you were )

[cdseven95]

My car has a tsb saying not to skip gears when down shifting or up shifting.
It stated it damages the syncos.

[stoinkythepig]

While I agree with the advice to let the clutch out between each gear change when slowing, I would like to add that a change to high-quality synthetic oil has always improved shifting on any bike I've owned.