Electrical Problem from Hell!

[akira700]

I have a question for folks more electrically adept then I.

ok so now after some guidance (Rambunctous, Kurlon, Bergs) I think I'm on a logical track for trying to narrow down the problem. Well using a multimeter at least, in a more methodical way, I hope!

Its just that its a moving target now. Previously there was a detectable short (11 mA bleed off the battery with the ignition sw off). Now its within limits at .6 mA.

The problem in a nutshell:
Engine starts and runs normally but headlights will not go on.
But switching Turn signals On will stall the bike.

Other symptoms with engine not running but just ignition switch to ON:
Headlights don't light up
Turn Signals work in a cross pattern.
ie. Turn switch left = right front blinks with left rear solid on.
Turn switch Right = Left front blinks with Right Rear solid on.
And instrument panel turn signal leds don't blink just a single blinking
somewhere behind the tachometer.

Another clue:
Bike also stalls if I disattach both front or rear turn signals (puzzling)
Anything about the wiring logic that would say the turn signals need
to be connected for the bike to run?

I have tested continuity of all wires related to the turn signals and they
test out ok. I shorted over the turn signal relay and the problems remain the same.

Any ideas here would be appreciated. Or if anyone wants to take a stab at this I could compensate you greatly if you can fix issue.

[Manny]

For Sale Section is where this bike needs to be.

[wiggeywackyo]

Hey, do you have a wiring diagram of your bike? Also, if you can list off the things you have replaced too that would be good.

[R1]

I dont want to sound like an asshole, but regardless of the repair this problem sounds like an electrical fire waiting to happen.

a few things

What was the very first problem that you had? I mean the first thing you noticed that wasnt right?

screw the multimeter. have you tried disconnecting everything and plugging them in individually one at a time to find out if it is even a module level problem?

if you did this, when did the new problems happen? when you plugged in the blinkers? reconnected the starter switch?

using a multimeter is going to give you more headaches than its worth if you dont exactly what it is you are looking for. having an 11mA anything could be interpreted in many many ways especially if the problem you have is component level and you keep searching module level.

what i mean is if excess current shot through your system then chances are it blew up a shit load of components that are internal in any number of modules, and from the sounds of it you are uncovering more and more problems as opposed to narrowing it down which will not only make the problem undetectable, but irreparable as well. if the excess current is surging through the system every time you turn the key on then you are doing more damage to other components in line with the circuit and because its a universal problem then you have no starting point.

I would be more than happy to take a look friday night or saturday afternoon.

I can bring an external DC power supply to test the components themselves as well as some spare wire and some soldering equipment.

but as i said before if indeed the problem is component level then the only solution i will have or you will find for that matter is that its gonna cost you $$$....

And no its not worth replacing anything on that bike to the component level if current was the cause. when current (IE a short somewhere) fries out any component in a circuit chances are other components are fried and the reliability of the PCB is now compromised. Yes it can be repaired and yes the repair can be better but cost effectively it cannot. the time it takes to determine whether its fixed only works out on high cost electronics in either a class 2 or 3 standard.

all the classes indicate is this

class 1 (consumer electronics you'd be surprised what constitutes consumer electronics) anyways this level has really no regulations other than, if it works it passes. it cant have any shorts or violate any serious electrical tolerances but other than that nothing is tested for dependability.

class 2 (Alot of industrial and all commercial electronics) specific tolerances to every aspect of the assembly but still specs can override acceptability and if it works it ships. some companies will durability test but only to a certain level

class 3 (high end industrial, high end commercial, all military, some NASA electronics) very strict guidelines, tolerances seem impossible to meet, durability testing is a must etc....

these are just from an assembly stand point. All i am trying to convey is that everything sold to a consumer base is disposable and problems like this are common reasons for replacement and once the problem is found then replace the damn module.

Oh and most people would shit bricks if they seem some of the shit that passes these classes in products ranging from a few hundred dollars to a few hundred thousand dollars.

nothing is made to last or be fixed anymore.

PM sent

Keith

[joeswamp]

Usually when everything goes bananas like that it means a ground is missing somewhere -- for instance your turn signal relay is grounding through a different turn signal, which lights it up. Turning on different electrical features produce different wacky results. It looks like a lot of stuff is wrong, but really it's only one wire... check all your grounds.

[R1]

Usually when everything goes bananas like that it means a ground is missing somewhere

+1

this is what i suspect but the more i thought about it, a short on a PCB makes the most sense, but when testing at a module level this would be undetectable.

[gixerhp]

When the bike is running what is the voltage at the battery?

Has the bike been crashed?

This might sound weird, but what do you have in the bike for headlight bulbs, and when did this problem start?

[wiggeywackyo]

I don't knw how similar 600RR's are as compared to F4i's but, just looking at this diagram, on the F4i, the headlight relay, the turn signals, their relays and the bank angle sensors all share a ground thought a common harness. So, with that in hand, I would focus on the front clip. That is if they are indeed similar.

[gixerhp]

I don't knw how similar 600RR's are as compared to F4i's but, just looking at this diagram, on the F4i, the headlight relay, the turn signals, their relays and the bank angle sensors all share a ground thought a common harness. So, with that in hand, I would focus on the front clip. That is if they are indeed similar.

Your are correct, all the nose clip grounds are in the main harness plug that goes to the upper!

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Check the maintence plug (yellow plug left side of motor. Nothing connected to it but might have a shorted gnd to motor from heat

[OreoGaborio]

try closing windows & restarting.

[wiggeywackyo]

Does the rest of your tach work normally?

[akira700]

try closing windows & restarting.

Thanks Pete. I knew someone had an answer to this!

[akira700]

Q: When the bike is running what is the voltage at the battery?
14.5V

Q:This might sound weird, but what do you have in the bike for headlight bulbs, and when did this problem start?
Sylvania SliverStars

Q: Does the rest of your tach work normally?
yes

R1: a short on a PCB makes the most sense

Well that's what I am thinking...the turn signal relay is on the board in the instrument panel. I have a sneaking suspicion that I may have started this by blipping the starter while stopped at those red lights that never go green. The electro-magnetic effect of the starter gear will throw the sensor at those "auto" red lights. Well I'm guessing that doing this with the blinkers on, overloaded the control/lighting circuits. Anyway suffice to say this technique of getting a red light to go green is not recommended!

About ground wires... they all seem to have clear continuity but maybe I'm not checking that right...

[butcher bergs]

It's all about the ohms right now. From wire to wire going to everything that's not working correctly and trace the respective sections of the harness repairing one problem at a time. Lights aren't working? Start at the bulbs and go backwards using the wire diagram for reference. You'll go be tracing the wires thru a relay, a switch, and a power source....maybe an voltage sensing ciruit as well...

Forget about the bleed off from the battery. I'd make sure your harness and associated components are working and connected properly first. You could have an issue with grounding and tracing the wires will uncover that.

The point was made that one or more electrical items might be fried. I agree however my gut's saying ith's the wire harness which is suspect and, IMO, should be the first thing to be checked out by an experienced repair technician. I'm thinking you'll see high resistance somewhere but it's just a keyjockey guess at best.

I'd offer to make a run at it but it'd be gone for a month.

Good luck.

[wiggeywackyo]

Also, does the engine shut off when a particular bulb is pulled out?

[R1]

I'd offer to make a run at it but it'd be gone for a month.

Good luck.

+1

yes this is a HuGE friggen problem and like Paul is saying to have this up and running normally will take a good amount of time.

I am just hoping i can help you eliminate some of the potentials so that you can continue trouble shooting.

IF all this seems overwhelming keep in mind people make good money doing this crap for a living for good reason.

I am gonna start with the simplest thin you can do and isolate EVERYTHING.

anything that can be individually tested will be removed and checked.

as paul said continue to ohm out the harness, but make sure that what you are testing is the wire itself and not the associcated modules.

it is also possible to have continuity between 2 points of ground and still have a bad ground. intermittent problems are a bitch.

[hondarider102]

i know scuba steve had a problem with his bike not starting and headlight acting up. Ended up being a semi-corroded ground wire. I would send him a message asking him what he did, he said he cleaned it up and problem was fixed.

[drop]

i know it's been mentioned already, but floating ground is my bet.

start checking resistance (not just continuity) of things that should be showing ground to verified good ground points.

[Chippertheripper]

This really sounds like a chaffed wire. It'll still have continuity from end to end. Check resistance with the bike off from the + side of your lights, and relays to ground. It should be open. (no continuity). You mAy have to try the blinkers with the turnsignal switch on, but not the battery. Usual spots for chaffed or pinched wires: coming right out of the switch housing, right around the headstock, or melted close to high heat.

I hope to not insult you by reminding that you can't check resistance with voltage applied, you'll pop a fuse inside the meter. When checking things that should be shorted, like a wire, I usually use the diode feature. Not all meters have it, but it's much easier to listen to the beep than keep looking at the display.

[scubasteveRR]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Check the maintence plug (yellow plug left side of motor. Nothing connected to it but might have a shorted gnd to motor from heat

i know scuba steve had a problem with his bike not starting and headlight acting up. Ended up being a semi-corroded ground wire. I would send him a message asking him what he did, he said he cleaned it up and problem was fixed.

I agree with this. I was just having the same problem AGAIN FOR THE 3rd TIME this year on my 05 RR and I know it was the yellow maintenance plug. It was getting warm when I started it and it would stall on me while riding and everything you are saying was happening. Headlights out, blinkers staying solid. starter worked but not the fuel pump.

I popped the top off the yellow cap took the bar that connects all the grounds together out (slides out like a pin) took the top off the connector and saw that there was one connector was black and fouled. I pushed that one connector out of the whole yellow connector and scraped it and tightened it and put it all back together and started the bike and the yellow connector stopped getting hot and I've been riding it now for two weeks with out an issue...

this is the plug. I wish I took pictures of it while I had it apart but I was really excited to finally find some corroded wires and my freaking issue... I fixed it and got it back together to go riding!!

[akira700]

Yeah I had that yellow thing sliced out of the tape and had a hunch about it being a centrally located junction and that could be bad. But I couldn't see how to open it without destroying it. Any tips on popping it open?

Man if that's the answer I owe Degs and you a big frikkin hug!
(as they both run...)

Anyway I'll be checking it tonight when I get home!

I agree with this. I was just having the same problem AGAIN FOR THE 3rd TIME this year on my 05 RR and I know it was the yellow maintenance plug. It was getting warm when I started it and it would stall on me while riding and everything you are saying was happening. Headlights out, blinkers staying solid. starter worked but not the fuel pump.

I popped the top off the yellow cap took the bar that connects all the grounds together out (slides out like a pin) took the top off the connector and saw that there was one connector was black and fouled. I pushed that one connector out of the whole yellow connector and scraped it and tightened it and put it all back together and started the bike and the yellow connector stopped getting hot and I've been riding it now for two weeks with out an issue...

this is the plug. I wish I took pictures of it while I had it apart but I was really excited to finally find some corroded wires and my freaking issue... I fixed it and got it back together to go riding!!

[Jim]

if my shit was this crossed up, i'd be getting a new wire harness on eBay for $80

[scubasteveRR]

here is a quick intruction on how to open the yellow connector without destroying it....

First get a small screw driver (like the ones you use for eye glasses) the very top is a pop open cap. Once you pop it open you can see a bar running across the whole connector. slide that bar out like a microchip. the slide the screw driver up the sides of the protruding part at the top. the whole top of the connector will then slide out reveling the female connectors below. It was very visible which connector was shorting out since there was black corrosion all around it. I suspected the connecter wasn't tight and it was arching for sometime then the corrosion got so bad it couldn’t arch anymore. which is was caused the bike to start having the issues.

[Degsy]

Yeah I had that yellow thing sliced out of the tape and had a hunch about it being a centrally located junction and that could be bad. But I couldn't see how to open it without destroying it. Any tips on popping it open?

Man if that's the answer I owe Degs and you a big frikkin hug!
(as they both run...)

Anyway I'll be checking it tonight when I get home!

Steve earned all the credit for this one.

If this ground is arcing, you can be sure there may be others acting up also, including, surprise surprise, the one on the left under the left ram air duct. They are directly connected. It would seem to me that this problem ocurrs after dealer maintenance when they reset any codes and they have not either:

A: Put the tape back on correctly
B: Pushed the yellow connector back into the engine bay correctly.

Maybe the yellow connector gets a little water in and arcs, causing surges through all the connectors and making little bad connection minefields all over the bike.

derek