#331

[CBR929RE]

hey Sam how does it feel to know I still beat you in HWSS even after I crashed?

[sdog30]

Haha

I actually didn't even see that.
Ask Jim how psyched he was to pull a win on me out of his ass on the last lap under a waving yellow flag.

[sdog30]

Oh and p.s.
I think it's funny that's the highlight of your race report.

[CBR929RE]

Oh and p.s.
I think it's funny that's the highlight of your race report.

lol
really the highlight was repainting Chris Mackin's gixxer with my rear tire and neither of us going down.

[Jim]

Sam, slowly waiving yellow means to proceed with caution. not drop an anchor

[FirstDuc-1098]

so Sam had to 'drop anchor' for you to pass him?!?

[CDOG1974]

[sdog30]

Sam, slowly waiving yellow means to proceed with caution. not drop an anchor

I thought a waving yellow meant no passing...I didn't realize there were different speeds.

It's cool though. Your right. I didn't hit brakes, but I did let off the throttle a little and that was my mistake. I'll get you in October.

[GixerJockey]

I thought a waving yellow meant no passing...I didn't realize there were different speeds.

.

Should have protested...

[Jim]

if my pass was illegally done in the waiving yellow flag, the corner workers would have radio'd into the marshal to penalize me

[Kurlon]

if my pass was illegally done in the waiving yellow flag, the corner workers would have radio'd into the marshal to penalize me

Not 100% guaranteed, but that's why there is a protest system as well.

[CEO]

If someone backs off after seeing the yellow flag, it is not your responsibility to slow down in order to try to not pass them. It's a yellow flag, not a red flag. The race is still going on. I had this question come up once regarding me and another rider.

If you want to roll way the hell off the throttle at the top of the hill when you see the flag, that's your call, but it negates my need to not pass you to stay within the rules.

It just means no aggressive moves as they don't want two more bikes flying towards the downed rider/bike/emts.

If they weren't comfortable with the race continuing at race pace, they would have thrown the red flag.

[CBR929RE]

why did my thread turn into a Jim/Sam slow contest. I was ahead of Sam, crashed and still finished ahead of him cause I didn't get lapped.

[Trouble]

If someone backs off after seeing the yellow flag, it is not your responsibility to slow down in order to try to not pass them. It's a yellow flag, not a red flag. The race is still going on. I had this question come up once regarding me and another rider.

That may be true for a standing yellow but for a waving yellow the rulebook says:

14.2.3 Waving Yellow Flag - indicates hazards on or near the track of a serious nature.
14.2.3.1 No passing is allowed from the flag stations displaying the waving yellow flag until past the incident.
14.2.3.1.1 Riders who violate this rule will be assessed a one lap penalty or a fine dependent upon circumstances.
14.2.3.1.2 The violation must be reported by a Corner Marshall or Official.
14.2.3.1.3 Rider complaints may be considered if the Referee believes it is warranted and justifiable.
14.2.3.1.4 Two complaints on any given weekend from any source will result in a one event suspension.
14.2.3.1.5 Under no circumstance will a pass for position be allowed.

[Jim]

Sam sucks

[CEO]

That may be true for a standing yellow but for a waving yellow the rulebook says:

14.2.3 Waving Yellow Flag - indicates hazards on or near the track of a serious nature.
14.2.3.1 No passing is allowed from the flag stations displaying the waving yellow flag until past the incident.
14.2.3.1.1 Riders who violate this rule will be assessed a one lap penalty or a fine dependent upon circumstances.
14.2.3.1.2 The violation must be reported by a Corner Marshall or Official.
14.2.3.1.3 Rider complaints may be considered if the Referee believes it is warranted and justifiable.
14.2.3.1.4 Two complaints on any given weekend from any source will result in a one event suspension.
14.2.3.1.5 Under no circumstance will a pass for position be allowed.

Um.... no....

So if someone slows down to 5mph I'm supposed to do the same? That's not the intent of the rule.

Point is, continue at race pace with alerted senses. if someone decides to roll of the throttle in the middle of the track, the intent of the rule is not for you to also do that as well. Hell you could end up crashing trying to avoid mistakenly passing someone.

[xsiliconkid]

if my pass was illegally done in the waiving yellow flag, the corner workers would have radio'd into the marshal to penalize me

You were probably just lucky the corner workers did not see it - otherwise it's a one lap penalty. There is no passing once you get to a waving yellow until after the incident. (some leeway is given if you are lapping a much slower rider).

[Gecko]

Um.... no....

So if someone slows down to 5mph I'm supposed to do the same? That's not the intent of the rule.

Point is, continue at race pace with alerted senses. if someone decides to roll of the throttle in the middle of the track, the intent of the rule is not for you to also do that as well. Hell you could end up crashing trying to avoid mistakenly passing someone.

First, I don't think Sam was doing 5mph. Whether he slowed too much or too little is a matter of opinion and really not a question that needs to be answered under the rules. I will say that I thankfully slowed when the rider in front of me (N.Houk) slowed in hwsb this weekend, otherwise the T9 incident that was bad enough might have been a lot worse and involved two additional bikes.

I think, as you suggest, the rule presumes riders will continue to travel at a pace at or close to race pace, with a heightened sense of awareness to the potentially hazardous situation on or near the track. I disagree, however, with your interpretation of the rule's intent to suggest that a following rider can use discretion under the rule regarding whether to pass or not. This entire section (§14.2.3) is written in mandatory, not permissive, language. Specifically, the rule expressly states "[n]o passing is allowed...." The rule does not entertain any qualifying language such as "unless needed to avoid crashing into another rider." Further, the rule does not provide that "[r]iders who violate this rule may be assessed a one lap penalty or a fine dependent upon circumstances." Rather, it states that a rider " will " be assessed a penalty. There is no discretion. The rule lastly provides that "[u]nder no circumstance will a pass for position be allowed." This subsection seems to make the drafters' intent pretty crystal clear: there are NO circumstances under which a pass for position will be allowed under a waiving yellow. This last section appears to rule out any reading of the rule that would interpret into the rule any qualifying language such as "unless needed to avoid crashing into another rider." At the very least this last subsection should be interpreted to mean that you cannot gain a position passing under a waiving yellow. A Fortiori, I interpret this subsection to mean that a rider should immediately (or as soon as safety dictates) give back the position gained by overtaking under a waiving yellow.

I don't doubt that you had this question come up once regarding you and another rider. I don't doubt that an LRRS official told you exactly what you've shared with us. I just don't think it was correct, and perpetuating this unauthorized precedent is misleading and could be dangerous to other racers. If the rules committee wants to draft in qualifying language to the "no passing is allowed under a waiving yellow" rule, they can do so in the next version of the rules in 2014. Until then, under no circumstances should a racer make a pass for position from the flag station displaying the waving yellow flag until they are past the incident.

[Chippertheripper]

I should add to any rider reading this (even though I'm a never-was has been) IF you're gonna do something unpredictable like really check up, throw a friggin hand in the air so you don't get ass packed.

[sdog30]

I appreciate all the info/support/comments. Just make a few things clear:

I'm not planning on petitioning this. I mentioned something to Johnny when I came off the track and he said if a corner worker saw it, they would call it in. For me to petition an 11th or 10th place positioning with no previous points and one race weekend left seems silly. I'm just psyched I did so well in my first amateur race weekend and just giving a friend some friendly polking and shit talking.

Just for clarity, I didn't jack the brakes or chop the throttle and I'm pretty sure Jimmy wasn't about to ass pack me. I noticed a waving yellow flag as I was about to enter t1 and I sat up and left off the throttle for a second just to make sure there wasn't something in the race line that I was going to run into. I'm pretty sure Jimmy was setting up the pass there (since he tried earlier in the race and I re-passed him in t2) and I made it easier for him by letting of the throttle earlier.

So was the pass cheap? Yes. Did he gain position? Yes. But I'm mostly mad at myself for giving it to him.

Am I going to protest it? No. I consider Jim a friend and it just makes me want to beat him in October. Plus, that's racing. I gained a position on Benjamin the weekend before because he had a tank slapper coming out on the straight on the final lap and I was able to get around him because of it. Same thing, not really but it is similar in the fact that I gained position in kind of a cheap way.

[sdog30]

Oh... and Brett. Sorry about jacking your race report, but in all honesty, this probably the most attention one of your reports had gotten so "your welcome"





You did kind of open the door too.

[Kurlon]

Well, your window to protest long since expired, so that's not up for discussion. As far as this being the same as you gaining a position on someone who had a minor moment due to a tank slapper, not even close. Someone makes a mistake on track, has a mechanical, etc, damn right you pounce on that, it's a racing incident. I've gotten people who botch a shift on the front straight, I've gotten tagged for the same, racing incident. Passing under a waving yellow before clearing the incident on track... that's a rules question and not a racing incident. I get where you're coming from on the no points, only one weekend in the class, etc and can respect that, but don't mix this up with legit times to jump on a gaff.

[TTD]

Couple of comments ...

1 - If the waving flag is at Turn 5 - the top of the hill - you should definitely slow down more than normal as it is a blind hill. You have no idea if the crash is just over the hill - or down in Turn 6. (For what it's worth, this is why Larry Hanlon is in a wheelchair. He crashed going up the hill and slid over it. Another bike came over the hill under a waving yellow and hit him).

2 - I was on the straight a lot this last race weekend and was amazed at how long it took for riders coming down the straight to see a waving RED in Turn one. Many riders were still in a full tuck going past start/finish - even though the flag was out when they came onto the straight. Tunnel vision is a bad thing to have when racing.

[CBR929RE]

Oh... and Brett. Sorry about jacking your race report, but in all honesty, this probably the most attention one of your reports had gotten so "your welcome"





You did kind of open the door too.

not a problem man. look at the first post and you can see there was no attempt at having a real discussion in this thread.


I never pass under a waving yellow unless its in the novice race and only if its a super easy pass where it would just be stupid to slow to their pace because I don't know if a fellow AM is right behind me. Had experts pass me under the same circumstances. I'm not even sure the rule applies when you're a different rider classification although the rulebook doesn't state it. I've used a waving yellow to make up ground on someone though. I've seen people slow up more than necessary so I take advantage while still laving a little margin.

[xsiliconkid]

For the record, a racer can't protest a waving yellow infringement. Inform LRRS officals for sure.