LRRS#4 – NOV 110

[DanRo]

After a great LRRS3, where I dropped my PB from 1.37 to a 1.29.6, I was decided to drop another 3, maybe 4 seconds … but both my body and my mind were not ready for getting bumped to the AM class… I did the logistical preparations : bike in good shape + registered for Eric’s Advance class with Penguin on Friday – thinking that this would shave 2-3 secs of my time.

Thursday I had a very busy day at work and got home around 8pm , put the bike on the trailer, packed everything by 11.30. Tried to sleep.. I could not close an eye all night.. Around 4.30 am I decided to “wake up” and drive from Boston to Loudon.. and easy 1h and 20 mins drive.

Got in Loudon a little after 6am, unpack and get ready for the track day .. but I was not feeling well .. Did track walk with Eric and went in the track for 2 rounds and I was sweating , having a horrible headache and decided not to go out again after the 2nd round. Ended up going in my tent and sleeping for an hour or two – started to feel better.
Saturday came, practice time.. I was feeling much better, felt like I was back 95%. Talked to Merik (381) couple of times, we were both in the same races all weekend and I was looking forward for him to give me some great races.
Watched first few races and saw a bunch of ref flags. I kept wondering what was going on, seemed like everyone was off. Met Merik few times and both of us were pumped up and excited about racing together and improving our times.

Race no 7: Got a decent start , Gunner (911) and Merick (381) pass me on the breaks of T1. I started to chase them… but surprise.. As I enter and start turning on T3, a motard almost t-boned me in the turn – had to straighten the bike and go wider to get out of his way... The motard (919) took that turn very recklessly(by cutting the turn and almost T-boning me) and pushing me out of his way… but I guess this is part of racing. Gunner and Merick started to get away from me and it was looking to be a great fight for the 1st place… but the motard(919) was catching up to them. In lap 2 or 3 the #919 gets in between Gunner and Merick, pushing gunner into the grass – looked like it was contact there, but Gunner keeps going and does not want to give in too easy … In Lap 4, as I come out of T2 I saw #919 trying to pass Merick (by pushing him into the tire walls in T3).. just that Merick did not have a chance to get out of his way. He got T-boned by #919 in what looked to me like a one of the nastiest accidents I have seen during one of my races – both Merick and #919 were down; corner workers were running to get the bike/check on the riders, Gunner somehow make thru without crashing. Red flags come up… As I come down on T9-T10 (on the red flag), I see Merick trying to get up, but he was literally on his knees / could not stand up. This got me really upset – this was not racing, #919 was just there to win at no costs, whoever was in his way he would literally push them into walls (as he tried with me and as he did with Merick). Ambulances were sent and we were sent back to the pits due to lack of available ambulances.
At the restart of the race (30 mins later), the accident got to me, I was slow, scared and upset at #919 for his reckless riding style – I barely managed to get a 8th place. We are there on the racetrack to race and have fun, not to kill/hurt each other!!!

Race no 10 – Formula 2: I was still affected by the accident and by the news that Merick (381) might have broken his pelvis; I had a pretty good few laps, passing #796 and #800 gave me a pretty good fight towards the end .. and I managed to get a new PB of 1.29.213 Was the 9th out of 18 bikes .. happy with the performance, but more worried about Merick – and wondering if he will every race again.


Sunday morning I woke up and was in feeling great! I was determined to go out there and give the best of me. Heard news that the docs did not see any fracture on Merick’s pelvis, but bunch of ligaments were torn …
Practices went well, Stephen (#192) and I were chasing each other a lot during practices … and was looking like the races were going to be fun despite the gloomy early afternoon forecast. Around 11.30 rain started and it lasted till about 1ish.. I was trying to decide whether to put rains or DOTs since I was doing the 2nd , 4th and 10th race of the day. My teammate Brian told me few times to wait and not put the rains, but I decided to change the front tire … while changing the rear , saw that Race 1 was postponed for another hour to get a dry track and decided to put the DOTs. Brian, I deff should have listened to you from the beginning.

Race 2 – was racing against the 600s: Did a wheelie start entered T1 prob the 7th or 8th. I started to pass the riders one by one and ended in a more than satisfying 4th place. It was a fun race, managed to put my knee down in T9 for the 1st time and did it for 2-3 laps in a row… felt great. Track was awesome, not slippery at all .. the grip was the best than I had ever felt.

Race 4 – Rookie 3: Had a great start but #192 and #402 pass me on the straight.. managed to get them on the brakes (thanks Brian and Josh for explaining me how to do that)… Led the race, worried that #192 would catch me and pass me… after the checker flag, I noticed that there was a pretty big gap between me and the rest of the pack … Was happy to get a 1st place this weekend …

Race 10 – Starter 3: Only 4 bikes in this race, again similar as in Race 4 .. They merged the Starter 3 and Started 4 in one waive… Got a good start, but I did not manage to pass #192 on the brakes in T1 … I was close to him and committed to pass him .. saw a chance coming out of the bowl took it , but with the corner of my eye I see something yellow on the treehouse flag station ( I think the corner worked was taking out the flag) and then in T9 I see #413 crashed… I was worried I will get a penalty for passing on yellow, so I decided to waive #192 on the straight line and let him pass me/give him back the position .. but by doing that I ended up getting passed by 3 bikes (Gunner, #192 and #402). Started to catch up with them and passing them one by one .. Gunner gave me a pretty good fight for the lead of the group of riders, managed to get him towards the end on the straight line due to my 20-30 extra HP that the SV puts out comparing to the Ninja 300 … Managed to win this race with one with few 1.30s flat laps.

Overall was a weekend that I could not have predicted: Started with me feeling sick on Friday, Saturday Merick’s accident got to me more than it should have had... but I finished the weekend well with 2 clean wins and no accidents.
Many thanks to my teammates: Brian, Mike and Roland and to Josh for having me in the garage and being a great “date” on Friday night …

Hope to see all of you in 3 weeks!
Dan

[tsorfas]

man never slow down in the straight and waive someone by. I am not sure where in the straight you let off but some people come out of 12 very hot and early on the gas.
Good write up. See you in 3 weeks.

[makct04]

Great report Dan, keep up the good work. I'm sure if you keep working at making progress, yellow plates will be in your future.

[DanRo]

So if u mistakenly pass someone on the yellow - and u realize after a corner or two ... what do you do ?

Dan

[tsorfas]

So if u mistakenly pass someone on the yellow - and u realize after a corner or two ... what do you do ?

Dan

too late at this point. you have already completed the pass. also if it was clean and safe and way before or after the incident nobody will care.

[Kurlon]

The real question of the weekend, will Seth Hahn figure out what the heck is up with you now?

[Kurlon]

So if u mistakenly pass someone on the yellow - and u realize after a corner or two ... what do you do ?

Dan

Savas has it right. IF you're going to allow someone by you have to do it predictably so you don't freak others out, so none of this throwing the four way flashers on down the front straight while pulling over to the hot pit wall, hold your line but back off slightly on the throttle? If you signal, the expectation is you're getting OFF the line and pitting in. Once that hand goes up you're committed, you're coming in, so don't do that just to relinquish a position. The cornerworkers are watching and understand that you may not have had time to react to the flag, there is common sense involved in who they call in for a penalty.

[DanRo]

Thanks Josh !

Savas has it right. IF you're going to allow someone by you have to do it predictably so you don't freak others out, so none of this throwing the four way flashers on down the front straight while pulling over to the hot pit wall, hold your line but back off slightly on the throttle? If you signal, the expectation is you're getting OFF the line and pitting in. Once that hand goes up you're committed, you're coming in, so don't do that just to relinquish a position. The cornerworkers are watching and understand that you may not have had time to react to the flag, there is common sense involved in who they call in for a penalty.

[RocketPunch]

Race no 7: Got a decent start , Gunner (911) and Merick (381) pass me on the breaks of T1. I started to chase them… but surprise.. As I enter and start turning on T3, a motard almost t-boned me in the turn – had to straighten the bike and go wider to get out of his way... The motard (919) took that turn very recklessly(by cutting the turn and almost T-boning me) and pushing me out of his way… but I guess this is part of racing. Gunner and Merick started to get away from me and it was looking to be a great fight for the 1st place… but the motard(919) was catching up to them. In lap 2 or 3 the #919 gets in between Gunner and Merick, pushing gunner into the grass – looked like it was contact there, but Gunner keeps going and does not want to give in too easy … In Lap 4, as I come out of T2 I saw #919 trying to pass Merick (by pushing him into the tire walls in T3).. just that Merick did not have a chance to get out of his way. He got T-boned by #919 in what looked to me like a one of the nastiest accidents I have seen during one of my races – both Merick and #919 were down; corner workers were running to get the bike/check on the riders, Gunner somehow make thru without crashing. Red flags come up… As I come down on T9-T10 (on the red flag), I see Merick trying to get up, but he was literally on his knees / could not stand up. This got me really upset – this was not racing, #919 was just there to win at no costs, whoever was in his way he would literally push them into walls (as he tried with me and as he did with Merick). Ambulances were sent and we were sent back to the pits due to lack of available ambulances.
At the restart of the race (30 mins later), the accident got to me, I was slow, scared and upset at #919 for his reckless riding style – I barely managed to get a 8th place. We are there on the racetrack to race and have fun, not to kill/hurt each other!!!

I was in race 7 too on Sat. All I know was when I am at the kink going into T3 I saw a bunch of bikes embedded in tire wall and frantic people trying to pull the bikes out. I was told after talking to Sergio (#298) the guy on the Ducati got T-boned by the same guy who ran Gunner off the track.

There were too many red flags on sat...

[tsorfas]

anyone know the guy on the motard? why would he be doing shit like that? someone shoudl talk to him before he hits JC and then JC rips his head off

[DanRo]

I talked to the guy on the motard #919 on Sat night and what worries me was that from the conversation with him it does not seem like he thinks he did anything wrong ... He kept telling me that Merick (381) slowed down too much in front of him...




Dan

anyone know the guy on the motard? why would he be doing shit like that? someone shoudl talk to him before he hits JC and then JC rips his head off

[Kurlon]

I talked to the guy on the motard #919 on Sat night and what worries me was that from the conversation with him it does not seem like he thinks he did anything wrong ... He kept telling me that Merick (381) slowed down too much in front of him...

You'd be better served talking to an LRRS official or rider rep. If there is a pattern, THEY'LL talk to the rider, at which point it'll be coming from an official instead of just another rider on the track. Puts more weight behind it (they can actually DO something if he ignores the problem) and removes some emotion from the situation at the same time.

[Tas]

Hi Dan, good job sticking with it and turning around a potential tough weekend and making it a good one.

If you recall, you and I spoke just before we registered on Friday with Penguin. I did the track experience though.

[FirstDuc-1098]

Dan, great racing with you this weekend. Our back and forth really helped me get comfortable with the bike.

And even thou you didn't need to wave me by, you did it very safe on straight well past 12. Glad you were able to battle back to front, you deserved it.

See you in a few weeks and we'll renew our battle.

Steve #192

[cdovego]

I understand each point of view on this topic. This one's tough and racing is dangerous.

[kumpy]

Tori and I spent 1/2 our day in the emergency clinic in concord for mirek getting xrays. Looks like he may have fractured in pelvis and tore every muscle in his right hip. Mirek will loose 3-6 weeks of contract work as a carpenter and possibly his enjoyment for racing. This is club racing and mistakes happen and we all wanna win, but we should all exercise some level of caution. As they say, we're racing for plastic trophies!

[maxim_X]

There is no room and no need for that kind of racing. Round 2 this year, my first race weekend I was taken out by 829 and It would have been my first and last race weekend if I didn't bump to amateur. Luckily I was unharmed and the bike was repairable unlike Mirek, who by the way, is an experienced predicable track rider. Accidents happen, and we all know that going into the race that something out of your control may happen. But, when some racers go out they are almost guaranteeing that injuries WILL happen. That's some fucking bullshit. It's gotta be policed.
Are the track officials doing their job? That's hard for me to say.

Do they see what we see while racing? They may have a good veiw but they are certainly not following the person around the track like a racer.

Should Penguin be more selective with the license process? It could be hard to judge someone's race attitude during a track day.

Personally I think we need to take it into our hands and rein the crazy and out of control racers in one way or another. Hopefully Mirek heals as quick as possible and nice report Dan, keep at it. I'll be in the amsoil garage for August. Maybe we will bump into each Other.

[Ductard]

Hi,

I tried to "quote" everyone on this thread - because I'm not sure of a better way to make sure everyone gets an alert about this message.

I am rider 919 - I've interacted with many of you in real life, and even more of you on this forum at one point or another.

If after reading this post, any of you would like to tell me what a shit-heel I am, I'll give you the opportunity to do it in person, I'll even buy the beer. If you still think I'm the maniac that's portrayed in this after hearing my side then, maybe I'll even let you kick me in the nuts. Hell, I'd want to kick me in the nuts if I was really as bad as I sound in this post.

Of all the things that bug me about it, and the one that is probably the most misstated is this:

I talked to the guy on the motard #919 on Sat night and what worries me was that from the conversation with him it does not seem like he thinks he did anything wrong ... He kept telling me that Merick (381) slowed down too much in front of him...

That is a very, very different characterization than what I remember of the conversation that we had.

What I do remember is looking at Merrick in the aid station, just hoping that it wasn't my fault - not being sure of anything that happened after tip-in - and apologizing to him when I asked what happened and he said "You kind of clipped me"

What I remember about our conversation is that after getting a concussion, going to the hospital, spending a few hours worrying whether my brain was bleeding, getting a CT scan, and all the while, hoping that the other guy was OK - some guy comes into my garage and basically starts yelling at me about things I had a fuzzy recollection of. Maybe I deserved all the medical issues above, but I'm not sure either one of us was in the right frame of mind for any fruitful discussion at that point in time.

What I said about Merick is that I had watched the gopro video to make sense of it all and I wasn't even trying to pass him. I was trying to pass the rider behind him and fall in line behind Merrick. Basically, where I judged a pass to be a 3 out of 10 on the risk scale things evolved and started going badly quickly. He wound up slowing down more than I expected and all of the sudden there's no way I'm getting behind him. I adjusted to the right, let off the brakes and went into that corner and went in hotter and shallower than I had any hope to make the turn - basically resigned myself to the consequences of low-siding into the tire wall in an effort to avoid him. So no, I didn't try to pass him by pushing him into the tire wall, and no I didn't T-bone him - I missed him but not by enough to get out of his line after he tipped in. His front tire hit my back tire and bad things happened.

In the garage you also said something about standing you up in a corner and I told you that I was sorry but I didn't remember the pass but I apologize if it wasn't clean...and I wasn't sure but if your issue was just that you got stood up a little bit that might happen in a race.

I think you need to watch this http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=a1jw...8#.U9cmIIBdXmq and re-think some of your stance about me being a ham-fisted lunatic if you call this "almost t-boning" you and "pushing you out of my way." I passed you at the second cone early in the braking zone. I usually like to keep these discussions at a high level, but I feel like there are lots of other details in this race report that aren't quite the way I remember them. I'm happy to show anyone the entire video if there's any doubt that I'm misrepresenting that clip.

I've watched the video where I pass 911 - it's before the apex on the inside of turn 7 - I'm 2-3 feet from the apex and the track is 45 feet wide....Keep in mind I can't see him once I pass him, and the only way I can think of that he could have gotten "pushed off the track" is if he either got spooked or he hung in on my right fender all the way to the apex of turn 8. If it's the second option then you've gotta think about what the guy who passes you is going to do next. I modulated the throttle enough so that I left a little bit of space from the apex, but (oddly enough for both of our safeties) I had to stay committed to the pass and assume that if he was on my right fender, he'd anticipate the right hander coming up and know that wasn't a good place to be. Maybe he stayed in the gas because he didn't want to get passed and was also thinking about winning one of those plastic trophies.

What I don't have a problem with is you voicing any concerns you had to the officials. Some of it I'm pretty confused about, and sounded more like somebody just started saying I was doing the opposite of everything that Eric teaches to make me sound like a maniac - like what the official called "a vague reference to a massive bar input coming out of T-2." I had a constructive discussion with him, and while I have no doubt they take complaints seriously, they obviously understand that there are two sides to a story and that accidents happen.

Let me be clear that I know pushing somebody into a wall isn't racing, but you have to think about how things progress as you move to different riding levels. In novice trackdays, it's usually passing on the straightaways, intermediate is usually outside passing. Advanced usually allows inside passing but it's generally understood that the other person shouldn't really have to alter their line. At the highest levels of racing, good passes shut off the best lines so that you can't get re-passed. I'm not saying that we're running at the highest levels of racing, but the person passing you is going to add some dynamics to the situation.

I mean this in a friendly way, but if you're doing things like waving other riders on and if the idea of adjusting your line after being passed isn't your thing, you might want to get some more track days in and then come back to racing. I'm not suggesting that someone can act like a maniac and run you off, but if I was as out of control as you're suggesting, don't you think I would have gotten meatballed or at least had a corner worker tell the officials to talk to me after one of the races? - especially on Sunday after you alerted the officials to my "reckless riding style?"

You guys can speculate on whether the officials are doing their jobs or not, and I'm not suggesting that lack of meatballs is exoneration. But the type of riding thats being described in this report wouldn't be very easy to hide - and the rider(s) that are saying otherwise were at best concentrating on their riding and not looking at the scene, whereas the corner workers that were beside me before my bike really stopped moving would probably have mentioned something if I really had a couple of near misses before t-boning somebody.

Dan, It seems to me that you're upset that your friend is hurt - I feel awful that poor judgement on my part contributed to a crash and somebody got hurt. You seemed to be a good guy before this unfortunate incident but I think you and your friends have gotten a little bit worked up - You seem to be demonizing me for every little minor perceived slight. Your report also reads like a private race for you and a few of your friends and I was just there interrupting the great battle for first place. On top of that you can't speculate on my motivations, whether I was trying to push people into walls, etc, etc. - I'm going to ask you to delete the thread and post another race report that's not so emotionally charged.

So there's some stuff I had to put out there because I think there's a lot in this report that doesn't accurately reflect the truth. Remember that there are two sides to every story. All the guys in my garage were saying "f@ck that guy" when I told the story behind the guy who came up and started yelling at me, just like I'm sure everybody in Dan's garage were saying "f$ck that guy" about me after he told them anything close to this report.

I'm not going to participate in a public back and forth, so I'm not going to respond publicly any further, and contribute to keeping this post floating on the top of the pile. So if anyone wants to discuss further / berate me / take me up on the beer / nut kicking then by all means PM me and I'm happy to discuss.

I also hope that Merrick is OK - and gets back on the grid again.

[Roland]

Dan good right up.

919 I don't know you at all but i do know one of the first things that they teach in Penguin is that it is on the passer to make the pass safe not the person getting passed. The person getting passed is to remain predictable. I have passed Meric and followed him a quite a few times, he is always predictable! I have crashed in every corner at loudon, I have never ever took any one out ever. I will crash not to take people out. We are not at the highest level of racing! We are family men trying to make it home safe and still have fun (ie. Merric). We are young men trying to learn (Gunner). We are thrill seekers (dan) but non of us are AMA paid pros and 99.9 of us will never be close to that. So why would any of us act or race like we are? That being said you hit someone trying to pass, its your fault, no if ands or buts about it. You can put whatever spin on on it you want to make yourself feel good but its bull shit you are wrong. The fact you hit someone isn't the biggest issue to me personally shit happens especially at pace but the fact that you have anything to say other than sorry to him and his family (Tori) highly pisses me off on a personal level. My 2 cent.

[DanRo]

I judged a pass to be a 3 out of 10 on the risk scale things evolved and started going badly quickly.

- Do you think a pass with a 3/10 risk (not sure if you met a 30% chance of crash) of a major crash worth it ?

He wound up slowing down more than I expected and all of the sudden there's no way I'm getting behind him. I adjusted to the right, let off the brakes and went into that corner and went in hotter and shallower than I had any hope to make the turn - basically resigned myself to the consequences of low-siding into the tire wall in an effort to avoid him. So no, I didn't try to pass him by pushing him into the tire wall, and no I didn't T-bone him - I missed him but not by enough to get out of his line after he tipped in. His front tire hit my back tire and bad things happened.

As Roland said, you as the person who passes has to make sure that the pass is safe and you do rear end/T-Bone/push the other rider off his/her line: this is what they teach you in Penguin.

I've watched the video where I pass 911 - it's before the apex on the inside of turn 7 - I'm 2-3 feet from the apex and the track is 45 feet wide....Keep in mind I can't see him once I pass him, and the only way I can think of that he could have gotten "pushed off the track" is if he either got spooked or he hung in on my right fender all the way to the apex of turn 8. If it's the second option then you've gotta think about what the guy who passes you is going to do next. I modulated the throttle enough so that I left a little bit of space from the apex, but (oddly enough for both of our safeties) I had to stay committed to the pass and assume that if he was on my right fender, he'd anticipate the right hander coming up and know that wasn't a good place to be. Maybe he stayed in the gas because he didn't want to get passed and was also thinking about winning one of those plastic trophies.

911 is a 14 yo kid. It may be a 45 feet wide track but he was withing those 2-3 feet (described by you ). And for you to say "if he either got spooked or he hung in on my right fender all the way to the apex of turn 8" I think is Bullshit!

I was as out of control as you're suggesting, don't you think I would have gotten meatballed or at least had a corner worker tell the officials to talk to me after one of the races? - especially on Sunday after you alerted the officials to my "reckless riding style?"

Yes, I alerted the officials and I was not the only one that talked about you with the officials.

Dan, It seems to me that you're upset that your friend is hurt - I feel awful that poor judgement on my part contributed to a crash and somebody got hurt. You seemed to be a good guy before this unfortunate incident but I think you and your friends have gotten a little bit worked up - You seem to be demonizing me for every little minor perceived slight. Your report also reads like a private race for you and a few of your friends and I was just there interrupting the great battle for first place. On top of that you can't speculate on my motivations, whether I was trying to push people into walls, etc, etc. - I'm going to ask you to delete the thread and post another race report that's not so emotionally charged.

Let's be clear: I will not delete this report and IMO is pretty messed up of you to ask me to delete it. My opinion is that on that particular race (which was one of you first races ever) you raced recklessly and caused the accident. Accidents/incidents happen, but admit fault, say sorry and learn from them not to happen again.

On a positive note, we raced again on Sun in 2 races (one you were in front of me) and I had not seen you doing anything dangerous on that one (you were on a the gixer).

We are all a family in Loudon, and for 7 weekends a year we do something which is dangerous by nature ... Let's not add any more dangerous factors into the equation.



Dan

[PainfullySlow]

First off, this is unfortunate on lots of levels. I would like to begin by stating that I hope that every single person involved heals fully and gets back to the grids.

Novice racing is always a little bit sketchy. I wish there were some nicer way to say that but there isnt. The class exists for people to figure things out, and sometimes trouble can happen during the learning process.

I will not speak on whether anyone was reckless, that is for the marshalls to decide but I can tell you with absolute certainty that they take their job and OUR safety very seriously for which I am eternally grateful.

From the video I saw nothing wrong, except that a novice on a motard was going into 3 with his usual marks. For the newer folks who may not yet know, motards brake WAY later than everyone else. Everyone in front slowed down, he didnt need to so he took the pass. Could/should the rider have known that was possible and set up on the inside of 3 before it got so close? Maybe, but as I said above, everyone is still learning these things in the novice bracket. Learning to recognize those kinds of opportunities and potential dangers is a part of the novice bracket.

My only advice here is for all to keep a level head. The fact that incidents happen is an unfortunate truth of our beloved sport; it is the price of admission we all pay at one point or another. We dont need to make the process any worse than it is.

[cdovego]

I couldn't find the correct words, painfully slow nailed it.

[GingahNinjah]

Id be interested in seeing the rest of the video...

[DanRo]

Me too ...

Id be interested in seeing the rest of the video...

[xsiliconkid]

anyone know the guy on the motard? why would he be doing shit like that? someone shoudl talk to him before he hits JC and then JC rips his head off

FYI, there was a conversation with #919 in the Media center Sunday morning.....
We did watch him out there Sunday and all seemed well.
As a novice racer you all have to understand you start with a racing license. in reality it is a license to lean the art of racing...
It is a way to ease into racing without just being dumped up against more seasoned Amateurs.
Points and finishing positions do not count for anything.. (except we all like to say we won - it's the competitive nature of why we race).the only thing that counts is improving your lap times and gain experience... this is how one advances...