RSP Racing #86 - Round 2

[Mr. Kurtz]

Since I was able to leave the entire garage and my trailer set up after Monday's TTD event, I was able to head to NHMS on Friday after a half day at work, rather than my normal Wed or Thurs night drive. This was a blessing and curse; as I hit traffic everywhere and didn't make it to NHMS until 6PM, even with having left home at 1PM.

Showed up, got caught up on some tire business(thanks Mike W for helping out so much Friday before we arrived), and got to work on the WR. Peter Kates of GMD Computrack Boston wanted my forks to attempt to stiffen them up after some feedback and tweaking on Monday. I pulled them off, handed them to him, and before I could even finish changing the oil, he had them back to me. Got the bike buttoned up and ready for tech in the AM. Since the weather was still looking questionable, I also got my "B" bike, a borrowed Ninja 250, ready and brought that through tech Sat AM also. The plan was to equip one with rains and one with dry tires, and be ready for anything at third call.

Saturday: nothing spectacular in practice, just kept trying to push deeper and carry more roll speed. This bike really is still quite foreign.

Formula 300: I'm gridded in 9B, first row of our race and one inside the points leader, Roger Ealy(823) on his Ninja 300. To my right is Bruce Marshall (398) on his Kawi 250, then Jon Vaughan (33) on the same. Behind us is Jerry Randall (584), new to the class and also on a Ninja 300. I get a decent launch, but can't keep up even on the short distance from the S/F line to T1. I go into T1 in 4th, and stay there the entire race. Ealy and Vaughan check out, and apparently battle it out the entire race, setting the front runner pace of 1:30 in the dry and finish Vaughan-Ealy, which keeps Ealy from getting too big of a championship lead(good for all of us). I managed to keep Randall in my sights for about half the race, but the big-little Ninja has an almost 10hp advantage on my WR, and there was nowhere I could make up the gap on him. On lap 5, I miss a downshift into T3, which is a death sentence on a low HP bike to begin with, but I made it much much worse when I realized it as I hit the transition up 4, five seasons of reflexes kicked in to compensate, and I clicked the shifter up twice...which doesn't work the same on a dirtbike as it would have on my GP shift SV650. Now I'm three gears too high, so I click down a handful, but by this time Randall is cresting the hill, and I never made up that gap. I ran to a fairly lonely fourth place, with Bruce a bit behind me, not having gotten any practice on his 250 earlier in the day. End result, best lap of 1:35.0, which is two seconds off the slowest 300, and five seconds off the front. I'm currently holding third overall in the class, but I won't stay there if I can't drop some time and finish in the top three from now on.

Clearly, lots to work on. There is much more corner speed to be had, and much more entry speed, but the exit speed just isn't there. It's becoming clearer and clearer that the Ninja 300 is the bike to have in this class, but I'm committed, and I'm going to stay the course with the WR. I'll be getting some time in at NYST and Thompson before the next round, so hopefully I can continue to get comfortable with the bike.

As always, I'd like to thank my teammates, fellow LRRS competitors, friends and everyone who makes up the LRRS family. Also all our sponsors, and everyone else who supports the team and the series.

[tsorfas]

You still have the sexiest bike out there

[Mr. Kurtz]

Unfortunately, the guys in front of me aren't stopping to admire it.

[Rambunctous]

Great read. Thanks. You might wanna look into coming up to Worcester on 290 the 190 north to rt2 west. Then 13 north to 101 and you come out in southern manchester. Not much traffic except a few lights in Milford. Of course you stll gotta deal with that Mass Pike.

[Paul_E_D]

No brakes! You can do it.

[GingahNinjah]

Good job buddy! not bad for only the second weekend racing the new bike!

[xsiliconkid]

Maybe we should call the Ninja 300's in to be weighed for Production compliance?

The spec I put together looked like this (HP figures were countershaft sprocket)
Bike HP Weight HP/Ton
WR250X 32 302 212
Ninja 300R 39 384 203

Jerry Randall told me... I think his dyno'd around rear wheel 35HP... and yours was 28. All make sense to me..
Of course the HP/ton does not take into account rider weight....

ps New racer 14year old Gunner Ovellette turned a 1:33.5 on his 300R (his Mom may keep him down in Novice for a couple of more events).

[Paul_E_D]

At the end of the straight, HP/ton makes no difference. It's a pure HP equation at that point. HP/ton may influence handling more than speed.

[rolker]

At the end of the straight, HP/ton makes no difference. It's a pure HP equation at that point. HP/ton may influence handling more than speed.

Reason being that air resistance, which we can assume is roughly equal between bikes, is the dominant factor at that point?

[xsiliconkid]

HP/ton will affect acceleration(a =F/m).....how fast you get to the end of the straight
More accurately would be to look at the torque numbers & curve - the curve is the actual rate (increasing or decreasing) of acceleration.

[rolker]

HP/ton will affect acceleration(a =F/m).....how fast you get to the end of the straight
More accurately would be to look at the torque numbers & curve - the curve is the actual rate (increasing or decreasing) of acceleration.

My point is that the F component is not only the force from the motor, it's the sum of all forces acting on the motorcycle, including an air resistance component, which starts at 0 when stopped and increases with speed. So what I think Paul is saying is that in Mike's case, air resistance cancels out the motor's power at a lower speed, resulting in acceleration becoming zero sooner than for other bikes.

[Paul_E_D]

Yes, in REALITY the lighter bike with better Hp/ton will always lose out. Look at the 125 vs an SV for example. Whether it is torque, wind, gearing, whatever other factors it doesn't matter. I have been doing this a long time (riding small bikes fast) and the REALITY has little to do with the math of HP/ton

[rolker]

...REALITY has little to do with the math of HP/ton

That's because the math of HP/ton is incomplete. Given a torque curve from a dyno and data from a wind tunnel test, I'm sure we can come up with the math that will closely predict the top speed that can be reached at the end of the strait.

Did I just come up with a new business idea? Combined dyno/wind tunnel shop?

[Kurlon]

That's because the math of HP/ton is incomplete. Given a torque curve from a dyno and data from a wind tunnel test, I'm sure we can come up with the math that will closely predict the top speed that can be reached at the end of the strait.

Did I just come up with a new business idea? Combined dyno/wind tunnel shop?

The drag racing guys already have this on lockdown.

[Mr. Kurtz]

Maybe we should call the Ninja 300's in to be weighed for Production compliance?

The spec I put together looked like this (HP figures were countershaft sprocket)
Bike HP Weight HP/Ton
WR250X 32 302 212
Ninja 300R 39 384 203

Jerry Randall told me... I think his dyno'd around rear wheel 35HP... and yours was 28. All make sense to me..
Of course the HP/ton does not take into account rider weight....

At the end of the straight, HP/ton makes no difference. It's a pure HP equation at that point. HP/ton may influence handling more than speed.

Jerry's 300 was 36 I believe, and mine is 27.7.

I'll be bringing a Kawi 250 and a CBR 250 to get HP numbers on those, too.

I'm glad this discussion is taking place, because I do think the Production restriction needs to be removed from the WR. SS rules alone would allow an exhaust, and if you assume a 1-2(optimistic) gain from that, the bike is still down over 15% in horsepower on a Ninja 300. Forcing it into a "well this bike should corner faster but this bike will gofaster" competition will make it sound an awful lot like Tony's stories of racing his TZ250 against SV650s.

ps New racer 14year old Gunner Ovellette turned a 1:33.5 on his 300R (his Mom may keep him down in Novice for a couple of more events).

Trust me...I noticed.

[rolker]

Of course, we can do all the math we want to calculate and try to equalize the time to reach a given top speed, but that's only part of the picture. We then need to slow those bikes down, so we need to take into consideration the 302 lbs vs 384 lbs.

In other words, quit whining and out-brake them into 1!

[Mr. Kurtz]

Of course, we can do all the math we want to calculate and try to equalize the time to reach a given top speed, but that's only part of the picture. We then need to slow those bikes down, so we need to take into consideration the 302 lbs vs 384 lbs.

In other words, quit whining and out-brake them into 1!

I'd love to get a race prepped 300 on the scales. I think it would be surprising how much weight comes off with all that fully faired streetbike junk, like a big old headlight(wait...)

[xsiliconkid]

Yes, in REALITY the lighter bike with better Hp/ton will always lose out. Look at the 125 vs an SV for example. Whether it is torque, wind, gearing, whatever other factors it doesn't matter. I have been doing this a long time (riding small bikes fast) and the REALITY has little to do with the math of HP/ton

I do agree when looking at where the HP is made (calc off of torque and RPM)..... in reality comparing torque curves and where they make the power (TORQUE) in combination with weight is correct.
all the small 4 strokes have similar max RPM (unless they were allowed to install custom crank/rods - like out the West coast). A bike at Loudon making big torque in low/midrange will likely out perform a bike making similar or even higher HP way up in the high RPM at a track like Loudon.

terminal velocity isn't (theoretically) effected by weight... but wait.... a Formula 300 it probably reaching terminal velocity before the start/finish line.
Mike K, make sure you get the torque curve from any dyno runs on differt bikes.

[xsiliconkid]

ps here is a dyno chart foe the EX300R

[Yknot]

It may not be all that fast but looks like you are having fun. I love the new look ride and the slim trim stud on it. Good luck with the development and let me know if I can help.

[Mr. Kurtz]

ps here is a dyno chart foe the EX300R

Mark em down as the first guy EVER to look at that and say "man, I wish I had all that power!"