Riverside Kawasaki

[slammp]

Seriously, you tell me if they are full oif shit or not.

The Story: I've got a buddy of mine with a 2007 Kawasaki 636 purchased brand new from Riverside. The bike has 4,500 miles on it and has never been ridden hard - I won't even bring this kid on group rides with me because he is afraid to push it above 60 miles per hour.

So he stores his bike at Riverside in the winter, because he doesnt want to leave anything to chance. This spring when he picked it up they had done some work on the bike, they replaced a "gasket" and did not ask his permission or notify him until he picked up the bike - I am personally unclear on exactly what was done but I do recall him being beside himself that they never told him. He picked it up in April.

Since that day he has complained that the bike sounded different to him - I could not tell, it may have been throatier in the exhaust, but it was all stock and not my bike so who knows.

So now he brought it back to them because it has begun to spray what looks like small drops of oil out the exhaust. Now this guy is anal in his being careful about how he treats this bike. Since he owned it he will not ride it until it reaches temp (150). He literally sits around and waits for it to warm up.

Here's where it gets tricky for me, Riverside is now telling him that by allowing the bike to warm up like that he damaged either the pistons or the rings and it is his fault?? Ok, I'm not a certified mechanic, but I have some skills and I have never heard of this, in fact I have always been led to believe that allowing the oil to warm up and circulate fully is the better option.

Let's hear some educated opinions - other dealers- racers. If Riverside is right and this is legit I am sorry for even posting this - right now I'm calling bullshit and saying that on the surface this situation appears VERY shady at best.

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

There is no way A dealer could work on a bike without the owners permission.

[JettaJayGLS]

There is no way A dealer could work on a bike without the owners permission.

And if they did, and didn't charge the person for it, they must have done something to the bike...its tough to get a dealer to pay to fix something they broke even if you see them break it, nevermind if it happened behind your back.

Make sure the owner of the bike takes a look at the paperwork they filled out for them storing the bike, they could have signed almost anything away.

[butcher bergs]

I wouldn't say they are out of line with that school of thought but I wouldn't use the word "damaged".

Here's the thing, the most important part of engine break in is the proper bedding of the pistion rings to the cylinder walls by means of pressurizing the cylinders. With your friend letting the thing idle for 15 minutes before riding since new, the rings likely never seated properly and with that, I wouldn't be surprised that there is some oil getting past the rings once the engine is taken off idle and as a result of a few thousand miles being clocked. Basically what I'm suggesting is that the engine has been more or less broken in for idle speed rather than operating speed.

This is the reason you will never see in any owner's manual a section about letting the engine idle for excessive amounts of time and I'd even go so far as to say that some of the manuals tell you to simply start the engine and ride.

The solution is to pull the thing apart, deglaze the cylinder walls, install a new set of rings for each piston and break the engine in properly....which means DON'T idle it for 15 minutes at a time especially when the engine is new.

[slammp]

Bergs I stand corrected - you have pointed out something that I seriously had not thought about. Thank you, that insight is actually very helpful.

[butcher bergs]

You are most certainly welcome. Tell your friend to monitor his oil level.

[JettaJayGLS]

Bergs I stand corrected - you have pointed out something that I seriously had not thought about. Thank you, that insight is actually very helpful.

Agreed, really good info in that post.

[woody9189]

And if they did, and didn't charge the person for it, they must have done something to the bike...its tough to get a dealer to pay to fix something they broke even if you see them break it, nevermind if it happened behind your back.

Make sure the owner of the bike takes a look at the paperwork they filled out for them storing the bike, they could have signed almost anything away.

Guilty conscience? Maybe someone took it out for a run and kicked the shit out of it, and accidently broke something. Tried to cover their tracks? I dunno... I usually start my bike, then put my gear on so it can warm up a little. Its usually well over 100 by the time I'm done

[Jaynnus]

I wouldn't say they are out of line with that school of thought but I wouldn't use the word "damaged".

Here's the thing, the most important part of engine break in is the proper bedding of the pistion rings to the cylinder walls by means of pressurizing the cylinders. With your friend letting the thing idle for 15 minutes before riding since new, the rings likely never seated properly and with that, I wouldn't be surprised that there is some oil getting past the rings once the engine is taken off idle and as a result of a few thousand miles being clocked. Basically what I'm suggesting is that the engine has been more or less broken in for idle speed rather than operating speed.

This is the reason you will never see in any owner's manual a section about letting the engine idle for excessive amounts of time and I'd even go so far as to say that some of the manuals tell you to simply start the engine and ride.

The solution is to pull the thing apart, deglaze the cylinder walls, install a new set of rings for each piston and break the engine in properly....which means DON'T idle it for 15 minutes at a time especially when the engine is new.

Read the last sentence under 'Particulars of this Bike' in the ad for an RC30.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=150449151083

Thoughts on that??

[scottieducati]

To each his or her own, but I have always followed this methodology with new bikes or newly built engines. You should always let the bike idle for *a bit* before taking off but breaking in a bike absolutely requires strong pulls to or near red-line in every gear followed by gentle rolling off and letting the engine "brake" in every gear... repeated / cycled more than a few times over the first miles... yes, the first 20-50 miles is the most important. It's tough to do on the street, better to do on a dyno.

I also have heard recently with a rash of R6's blowing up at the track (one 30' in front of me on a race start oiling me and my bike completely) that the new-gen R6's lack oil pressure, ESPECIALLY at idle. Something tells me this all is a product of trying to get big power out of 600's. There's a reason you used to see 100 HP out of 600's 10 years ago and are not really getting much more (in stock form) now... you can only get so much out of the same displacement, so corners are cut and things are lighter with tighter tolerances than ever... further exacerbating the need for proper break in. I was told that especially on a "built" R6 motor that the rider should NEVER let the bike sit and idle as it is starving the top end from oil without enough pressure. Start for a few then get on it and ride (not wailing on it but easing into it as engine temp rises).

It seems your friend did the exact opposite and while it's not an R6, I can't help but think most modern 600's are similar with regards to oil pressure at idle... the less parasitic loss (oil pump, electrical, etc.) the more power you'll get.

[scottieducati]

Different era all together.... and I may be mistaken, but I would highly doubt ANY RC-30's motor left the factory without being broke in on the dyno. They were hand-made race bikes with lights, not production 600's for the masses... not sure you can compare. I bet Degsy can chime in on more on how the RC-30's were built and delivered, as he to this day stands in a tri-pod stance at the mere thought of a 750 gear-driven V4 Honda.

Read the last sentence under 'Particulars of this Bike' in the ad for an RC30.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=150449151083

Thoughts on that??

[Jaynnus]

To each his or her own, but I have always followed this methodology with new bikes or newly built engines.

That is exactly how I have always broken in motors too...only I dubbed it the 'crack it and cool it' method (although I never really cooled the engine, just backed off for a bit).

I've never had an issue.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.508 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

I buy my bikes new for the most part. From day 1 I start them, allow them to come up to 100 degrees and run them hard. I have never had a motor failure in 28 years of riding, except 1 bad racing camshaft that failed in 10 miles.

[butcher bergs]

Read the last sentence under 'Particulars of this Bike' in the ad for an RC30.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=150449151083

Thoughts on that??

I believe those engines were already run-in from HRC but there are also many other variables. If the bike was already in heated storage, that would minimize the warm up time and that would be a huge difference than letting an engine warm up from, say, after a 55* night.


The Moto Tune engine break in is a decent guide but it needs some updating, IMO. Heat cycling is not necessary as he notes but the problem is when he says to "warm the engine up completely". Personally I would preheat the engine with a heater prior to firing it for the first time therefore reducing the need to wait for operating temp to come in while your engine essentially is bedding the rings in at idle.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.508 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

This is one reason why the most anal people end up with seals failing, smoking motors, ticks and rattles, poor power etc. The worst thing you can do to a motor is let it idle at standstill. No airflow, little oil pressure, camchains slapping around. Get it, ride it, forget it. Put conventional oil in at 600 miles, 1500 miles and 3k miles, then synth every 3k and you are golden.

[DesmoTull]

doesn't almost every factory dyno test the bike before it leaves the factory?? I've seen this on factory tour vids on youtube for Triumph, Ducati, Kawasaki and Suzuki. Among others....

[butcher bergs]

Maybe a few examples here and there but do you really see Yamaha taking the time to strap 2 million bikes onto the dyno?

[DesmoTull]

I could be wrong, but pretty sure they all do it. I saw it on those "twist the throttle" shows.

[butcher bergs]

I don;t know for certain.

I will say I don't see the cost effectiveness of doing that seeing how machine tolerances and technology have come a very long way. I'd be willing to bet the engines are fired up for testing but not much more.

[slammp]

I actually saw that on twist the throttle as well. They basically side that there is a bar code attributed to each bike and that the factory can pull up your bikes dyno run if there is ever a problem - it was literally on tv last weekend, and it was Kawasaki that they were takling about.

[Degsy]

Each and every bike is fired up on the dyno and run through the gears for a minute or two. At least that's what I have seen at the two factories I have been to.

...and by the way, they fired them up and within 1 second were changing gears and hitting the high revs. no warm-up at all.

[DesmoTull]

I actually saw that on twist the throttle as well. They basically side that there is a bar code attributed to each bike and that the factory can pull up your bikes dyno run if there is ever a problem - it was literally on tv last weekend, and it was Kawasaki that they were takling about.

yeah, the Kawasaki factory is *nuts*. The efficiency of that place is amazing.

[ridnwb]

The Story: I've got a buddy of mine with a 2007 Kawasaki 636 purchased brand new from Riverside

1) There is no such thing as a 2007 636. They stopped making them in 2006. I'll assume you're talking about the 599 engine in the '07 model.

2) If you are talking about the '07 ZX6R, are you talking about the valve cover gasket? This is a well-known recall Kawasaki put out two years ago. If so, they may have checked his VIN and noticed he hadn't gotten the work done yet. If that's the case, there shouldn't have been a charge for the repair.

On a side note, I'm not sure what's up with shops fixing things without being asked. I had a situation like that recently with a different shop. Not too pleased about it myself.

[slammp]

yeah it is an 07 - I assumed 636 because I used to have one - so you must be right and it would be a 599cc. In all honesty I do not know about the gasket, but if there was a recall it would make sense that it was the valve cover.

The thing is, if you believe the story, which I do, they did not notify him. I know personally that he has noticed the difference in exhaust note since he got it back from winter storage and has been concerned. Maybe he did blow the rings by not riding it properly, but by opening the engine without his knowledge or consent how will anyone ever know that the issue is not related to something they did.

What Bergs said earlier made perfect sense, but by touching the bike without authorization Riverside put themselves in doubt.

[BostonSVkid]

tell your friend to keep riding the pig and see how the oil consumption is. Maybe (doubt it) will work itself out. Cant hurt right? Its out of warranty?

Oh and the only reason I ever go to riverside is to get parts and inspections. I would never buy or service a bike there EVER.