[OreoGitorio]

Jro just duct tape your right foot to the footpeg next time you head up to the track

[tsanto]

Sportbikes have a rear brake?

[Doc]

Originally Posted by ceo012384

I know you're a racer and MSF ridercoach Doc.... but this statement is laughable at best. We're talking about sportbikes here.

Yep, Sportbikes and STREET riding!

I am correct and I stand behind my statement. They wouldn't put it on there if it wasn't useful.

Proper use of the rear brake will signifigantly decrease your stopping distance.

Maybe you should take a class or get some more experience Calling my comment laughable is ludicrous.

Now on the TRACK is a different story entirely but I still say there are times you can use it. (even if it is to start a controlled slide to help in steering, or when you go off into the grass as mentioned before)
Knowing when and how is the important part. I would NEVER just disregard my rear brake entirely.

[Honclfibr]

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

Ok, so get rid of the rear brake.... Now what are you gonna do if you lose your front brakes going into turn 3?

(it's happened before... and it's not good )

+1 I lost my front brake coming into turn 6 and was able to use my rear brake to slow the bike enough to bend around the bowl without crashing. The rear wagged a little but it came back around.

[Jaynnus]

Originally Posted by ceo012384

If you're using the front brake correctly, the rear brake is practically worthless. The front brake commands 99.999% of your braking power.

So (street riding) if I brake and my rear tire does not leave the pavement, I am braking incorrectly??

[hammadown]

Originally Posted by ceo012384

I know you're a racer and MSF ridercoach Doc.... but this statement is laughable at best. We're talking about sportbikes here.

Its actually not laughable at all. With basic skills, especially on the track, I'd say stay away from the rear, but as you improve, it can be a very good technique. In fact, I bet some riders in the situation like the picture you posted would be on the rear brake a bit to slow the rear and lessen the gyroscopic forces of the rear wheel. Plus this is just fun (if only I could do it):

[snowborder]

what about "backing it in"????

[OreoGitorio]

Backing it in (CORRECTLY) does NOT involve the use of the rear brake.

[ChR1s]

Yeah, those supermoto bikes have twin-piston rear calipers for looks.

[Pittenger5]

I was under the impression that backing it in has more to do with the clutch and engine braking and stuff, thoug h Icould be wrong

[OreoGitorio]

Originally Posted by ChR1s

Yeah, those supermoto bikes have twin-piston rear calipers for looks.

What is his left hand doing?

Modulating the clutch.... to control the back end.

[ChR1s]

Mostly about weight transfer, mostly.

[Honclfibr]

The only "backing it in" that I ever expect to do on my racebike is when I put it under my EZ-Up at night. I just hop off the bike, grab the handlebars, and back it in. No brakes required.

[RandyO]

on the street, should you be using either brake...... first slow down by rolling off the throttle, as you slow downshift so that your in the right gear to get back on the power, only use brake after rolling off the throttle is not enuf


use both brakes,

slow speed maunvering, your usually just using the rear brake


don't be afraid to the rear brake, lern to use it

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by Doc

Yep, Sportbikes and STREET riding!

I am correct and I stand behind my statement.

I meant for track riding, it's worthless unless you are using it for an advanced technique like scrubbing speed up to the apex or something like that to keep the bike settled.

Your statement was that the rear brake can provide 25% of your stopping power, which I still believe is not correct if you are using the front brake anywhere close to its maximum usefulness... pure physics says it can't. Sure you can use it on the street, hell, you could do 100% of your braking with the rear on the street if you were slow/careful enough. But in terms of potential stopping power, the front brake has virtually all of it because as you use more front, you decrease rear tire load.

I'm also not sure why people say you should use the rear in a panic stop on the street... that's essentially like hard braking at the end of a straight on the track but you just keep on it for longer (i.e. until you actually stop). If you're learned in using your front brake hard, then the rear brake wouldn't afford you anything in the street situation either, you'd just lock it up. The attention required to modulate that teensy bit of rear tire traction is above the benefit... Eh?

Or is that 'use both on the street for panic stops' more a suggestion for everyday folks who aren't familiar with the limits of the front brake (so it's become a general rule)?

Originally Posted by Jaynnus

So (street riding) if I brake and my rear tire does not leave the pavement, I am braking incorrectly??

I didn't mean street riding... sorry.

Originally Posted by hammadown

Its actually not laughable at all. With basic skills, especially on the track, I'd say stay away from the rear, but as you improve, it can be a very good technique. In fact, I bet some riders in the situation like the picture you posted would be on the rear brake a bit to slow the rear and lessen the gyroscopic forces of the rear wheel. Plus this is just fun (if only I could do it):

Yeah I mentioned advance techniques and odd situations later down in my post...

Why would they want to slow the rear up in that situation like you said? to help turn-in be quicker?

And that motard picture is SICK!

[Josephd14]

Originally Posted by RandyO

on the street, should you be using either brake...... first slow down by rolling off the throttle, as you slow downshift so that your in the right gear to get back on the power, only use brake after rolling off the throttle is not enuf


use both brakes,

slow speed maunvering, your usually just using the rear brake


don't be afraid to the rear brake, lern to use it

Ahhh it took me all the way to the end but someone beat me to it. Thank you Randy, Engine braking and shifting is a big part of braking in any manual Transmission. As most know that have had the luck to ride with me, I rarely use my brakes except right at the end of a complete stop, or right about when I realize I am going into the corner a little too hot. maybe it's becuase i'm so slow I don't need brakes..

[OreoGitorio]

when you bring the rear around it allows you to get the bike pointed in the direction you want to go sooner.

Here... just read this

http://www.supermotoracer.com/SMR%20...2_backitin.pdf

Yes, there is some mention of using the rear brake, but most of the work is done w/ the transmision & the clutch.

[snowborder]

so yes it used for backin it in... but not entirely as you say now. Good read though,thanks!

"The rear brake is a secondary tool to control
speed and the rear wheel. At no time is the rear
wheel supposed to lock up or skid due to the
rear brake. If the rear locks up, a rider can
easily lose control and valuable seconds. Study
a pro-level rider and understand that no matter
how sideways or flat they get, the rear wheel is
always spinning."

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

when you bring the rear around it allows you to get the bike pointed in the direction you want to go sooner.

Here... just read this

http://www.supermotoracer.com/SMR%20...2_backitin.pdf

Yes, there is some mention of using the rear brake, but most of the work is done w/ the transmision & the clutch.

[jnm988]

Maybe I'm cheap... but I always think that every time I use my rear brake AND my front brake when I'm slowing at a light, its a few more miles before I have to replace the front brake. That and I find that when I'm riding 2 up, I use the rear brake more.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by ceo012384

I meant for track riding, it's worthless unless you are using it for an advanced technique like scrubbing speed up to the apex or something like that to keep the bike settled.

Agreed

Originally Posted by ceo012384

Your statement was that the rear brake can provide 25% of your stopping power,

My statement was 25% OR LESS I am still correct.

Originally Posted by ceo012384

which I still believe is not correct if you are using the front brake anywhere close to its maximum usefulness... pure physics says it can't. Sure you can use it on the street, hell, you could do 100% of your braking with the rear on the street if you were slow/careful enough.
But in terms of potential stopping power, the front brake has virtually all of it because as you use more front, you decrease rear tire load.

I'm also not sure why people say you should use the rear in a panic stop on the street... that's essentially like hard braking at the end of a straight on the track but you just keep on it for longer (i.e. until you actually stop). If you're learned in using your front brake hard, then the rear brake wouldn't afford you anything in the street situation either, you'd just lock it up. The attention required to modulate that teensy bit of rear tire traction is above the benefit... Eh?

Or is that 'use both on the street for panic stops' more a suggestion for everyday folks who aren't familiar with the limits of the front brake (so it's become a general rule)?

As for the last part... properly modulating the rear tire is PROVEN to stop you quicker. The reason you don't use it on the track is 1. Afraid of locking it up at the high speeds. 2. You are trying to go as fast as possible and 3. we are talking about straight up and down PANIC/street stops.

Learn how to use them BOTH and you WILL be a better rider. It is not there just for show. Use it correctly and it will do you no harm.

[REDVTR1000]

this is a study i saw a while back with a cruiser and a sport bike. i think it is a little off though as they have a huge ass data collection device on the back adding weight to the rear but i could be wrong. me personally i favor the front brake in all situations except low speed manuvering. worth a read
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

[Brit-Triple]

The "backing it in" article was pretty neat, in cars it is the same as Left foot braking. Especially for front wheel drive cars as you need to get the rear around or understeer horribly.

as far as motorcycling is concerned, I have some of the least amount of time behind a motorcycle, but I notice that I use the rear brake. I don't know if it because I want both hands and both feet to be doing something, or because I hear that the better people get, they trail brake and do some (emphasis on very little) rear braking. But, whatever you have been doing for your whole life is what you will revert back to when you say "holy shit I'm gonna die".

So, unless you have the same amount of time to relearn what has taken you years to ingrain and build into your muscle memory, it doesn't matter which one is better, safer, makes me look cooler etc. Keep doing what you've been doing.

besides if you started this thread any time in history, people will argue it either way.

be safe and no lockey rear wheelie.

[Doc]

From that report.

Emergency braking on a motorcycle equipped with a conventional braking system must involve use of the rear
brake, even though it has a less important role than the front brake. It plays a role in the first instants of braking
before the rear wheel becomes unloaded through weight transfer. A series of test we conducted in 2003
(Performance Evaluation For Various Braking Systems of Street Motorcycles) showed that use of both brakes
generates a mean deceleration of -0.774 g compared with -0.711 g without using the rear brake.
The unit of measurement g corresponds to an acceleration of 9.8 metres per second per second.

[banzairx7]

Originally Posted by Doc

From that report.

Emergency braking on a motorcycle equipped with a conventional braking system must involve use of the rear
brake, even though it has a less important role than the front brake. It plays a role in the first instants of braking
before the rear wheel becomes unloaded through weight transfer. A series of test we conducted in 2003
(Performance Evaluation For Various Braking Systems of Street Motorcycles) showed that use of both brakes
generates a mean deceleration of -0.774 g compared with -0.711 g without using the rear brake.
The unit of measurement g corresponds to an acceleration of 9.8 metres per second per second.

That works out to 2'/sec quicker using the rear brake. If it takes say 160' to stop from 60 @ .774 g/sec(32'/sec) using the rear brake would stop you 10' shorter.

[MattyC]

Here folks, I will put this issue to bed once and for all.

Read Doc's posts. He is 100% correct. Learn to use your rear brake properly and stop riding like a jerk.

Have a nice day.

-Matt