[Doc]

Thank you.













:

[g®eg]

this argument always makes me smile...
if a rear brake is unimportant on a race bike (or modern street bike) why would they bother?

seems Mick Doohan wanted to be able to use his even when riding w/ a unusable right foot?

One notable trait of Doohan's post-crash riding style was the use of a hand-operated rear brake developed during 1993. This was operated by a "nudge" bar similar to a personal water craft throttle, but mounted on the left handlebar. Some commentators have argued that this technique offered Doohan an additional advantage in rear brake control, though there was nothing to stop other riders from trying it (and some did).

can't argue w/ the thunder from down-under

[beet]

rear brakes are your friend

[Honclfibr]

Micky Doohan could probably lap most of us using *only* the rear brake.

There's no doubt it's possible to use the rear brake effectively on the track, the question is more whether it's useful for the average trackday rider/club racer to learn to use it effectively. I have personally found it to be beyond the scope of my riding to try to modulate the rear brake to any real result on the track, excepting of course the one time my front brakes failed. At that point I found it very effective in helping me to avoid chewing on the fence in T6.

[OreoGitorio]

Honkie's got an excelent point.

Obviously the rear brake has its uses... but...

When I'm on the track, I'd much rather use my limited brain power on judging entry speed & plan my desired trajectory.

When I'm on the street (in an emergency situation) I'd much rather use my limited brain power on trying to AVOID the obstical and apply max braking with the front tire.



Obviously there are other times besides track riding and emergency braking where you need to make a decision on whether or not to use the rear brake, but it seems as though MOST people's argument in FAVOR of using the rear brake involve discussions of braking distances. That would lead me to believe that their argument is based on the application of maximum stopping power.... in which case, you're working with limited brain power... so refer to my two examples above.

I use the rear brakes in the rain, when I'm riding two-up, every once in a while when I'm maneuvering at low speeds & when I want to take my hands off the bars & keep from rolling... that's about it.

[35racer]

My rear brake saved my ass last week at the No Frills Trackday.

Rider went down in front of me forcing me toward the Turn 2 Cornerworker stand. I used 100% front brake until I ran out of pavement, then switched to 90 percent rear and just dragged the front brake.

I personally don't use the rear on the track. My right foot actually never moves once I roll onto the track. I just put the ball of my foot on the peg and leave it. My left foot does the same... only moving to shift.

[g®eg]

so....
the advice for track day noob's should be "don't use your rear brake until you are much more experienced" versus "never use your rear brake"

mixed messages get noob's confused.

[35racer]

My personal message would still be to not use the rear brake on the track.

I'm going on 14 years of track riding or racing... and still haven't found it to be beneficial for track riding.

On the street, I use it all the time when I'm riding a non-race replica sportbike. My Goldwing had ABS linked to all wheels, and my KLR has a very useful rear brake.

So my advice is to learn how to use the rear brake effectively on the street and to also learn how to efficiently separate track riding from street riding in your skillset.

Unless I lose front brake or run off the track, my mind is not thinking about the rear brake on the track.

On the street in a panic situation, my right foot automatically goes toward the rear brake. Likewise, when dirt riding... rear brake is always used.

Bottom line is to gather all the skills, then decide when to use them. The overwhelming portion of very fast track riders will not use the rear brake... and that is what we promote to noobs.

[g®eg]

Originally Posted by 35racer

My personal message would still be to not use the rear brake on the track.

I'm going on 14 years of track riding or racing... and still haven't found it to be beneficial for track riding.

On the street, I use it all the time when I'm riding a non-race replica sportbike. My Goldwing had ABS linked to all wheels, and my KLR has a very useful rear brake.

So my advice is to learn how to use the rear brake effectively on the street and to also learn how to efficiently separate track riding from street riding in your skillset.

Unless I lose front brake or run off the track, my mind is not thinking about the rear brake on the track.

On the street in a panic situation, my right foot automatically goes toward the rear brake. Likewise, when dirt riding... rear brake is always used.

Bottom line is to gather all the skills, then decide when to use them. The overwhelming portion of very fast track riders will not use the rear brake... and that is what we promote to noobs.

obviously the original poster did not have an explanation when at the track as well thought out as the above. Since his query left him more or less confused.

Hey folks- When I was at a track day a couple of months ago I got totally hammered on for using the rear brake. Its a force of habit! And also my old clunker vintage bike probably needs the extra stopping power. But anyway, the instructor told me the rear brake causes more trouble and I need to break the habit and not touch it if I can help it. So two questions really- 1) do any of you racers ever touch the rear brake? and 2) What about the rear brake on the street? I mean, if you aren't touching it on a track, why then on the street? Help me out here guys (and sorry if this is a repost or something....just kindly let me know if it is and redirect me thanks

I have to agree....
Bottom line is to gather all the skills, then decide when to use them.

[35racer]

Agreed...

And actually, on an old vintage bike... I would have suggested he try it with and without the rear brake.

The geometry of the bike would mean the rear brake would be more useful... as well as the lack of front brake stopping power.

[-jro-]

Originally Posted by 35racer

Agreed...

And actually, on an old vintage bike... I would have suggested he try it with and without the rear brake.

The geometry of the bike would mean the rear brake would be more useful... as well as the lack of front brake stopping power.

Hi! me again- so just a little background: I only started racing last season, so obviously I have soooo much to learn. But- I have in fact already begun playing with rear vs no rear on the track. I really suck at turn 3- I hate it, I always come in either way too hot or way too slow. Anyway, here's what has happened: one time I came in too hot, panicked, and hit front and rear simultaneously, hard. I'm not sure what happened, but the tires were skipping and the bike was shaking and I ended up stopping in the hole in the divider with the flag guy shaking his head lol. So I figured- gee..ok, I wonder if the rear brake made my bike handle so bizarrely? Next time I find myself coming in too hot- just front brake. There was no way I was going to stop in time, not a chance. I get to hang out with corner worker again lol. After these instances I'm pretty shaken up and from there on in I pretty much coast into turn 3, yes I'm that slow. I've done some more track days/race since then, and what I think I need to do is 1) really figure out what speed is too fast to come into this corner 2) begin braking early, in little jolts first and then a hard steady squeeze near the end 3) try and use only front, but if after the first few squeezes I'm still in too hot, use the rear. - does this make any sense??-

[Honclfibr]

4) Join our discussion about reference points in turn three.

[RyanNicholson]

Originally Posted by -jro-

1) really figure out what speed is too fast to come into this corner

really concentrate on setting reference points. this will keep your corner speed consistent. If you feel too slow going into a corner you can always move your brake marker point deeper into the corner a little bit at a time. Conversely if you find yourself going into a corner too hot all the time, you can move your brake marker further out. I roll off the gas and brake at the first cone going into T3 for instance, then I have another marker for turn in, I get on the gas before the first crack/bump, etc. Some really fast guys will have hundreds around the track.

Originally Posted by -jro-

2) begin braking early, in little jolts first and then a hard steady squeeze near the end

From my experience you might want to think about doing it the other way around....a smooth SUPER hard squeeze initially (not just a hard grab, quick but smooth to keep the bike happy)...I mean HARD squeeze to scrub off the speed then trail brake smooth after to set your corner speed. Please dont "jolt" the brakes lol

Originally Posted by -jro-

3) try and use only front, but if after the first few squeezes I'm still in too hot, use the rear. - does this make any sense??-

use a consistent reference point for a brake marker and you wont have to worry about it too much. I'd say 99% of racers do not use their front brake to its potential (myself included). A vast majority of people think they are braking hard when they are probably only using 50% of the available stopping power....so basically they COULD brake later, at a higher speed, and scrub that speed off in a much shorter distance. Its just a matter of learning to do it without pissing yourself in the process

as far as the rear brake, I've played with mine some in practice....I can't think of a time I've used it in a race thus far.

[OreoGitorio]

5) use paragraphs

[35racer]

Originally Posted by -jro-

what I think I need to do is 1) really figure out what speed is too fast to come into this corner 2) begin braking early, in little jolts first and then a hard steady squeeze near the end 3) try and use only front, but if after the first few squeezes I'm still in too hot, use the rear. - does this make any sense??-

I would definitely NOT do 3. The time the rear brake is most effective is BEFORE you really load the front.

I would not use Turn 3 as the learning area for maximum braking.

I would read up on proper braking technique... for both front only and front and rear.

Mainly: Front and Rear. Apply both brakes together... rear harder than front at first and then slowly transition so that the front is progressively harder as the rear is progressively lighter. Is this hard to do? YES. Hence I don't do it on the track.

Front only: Roll off gas and do enough front brake to get the suspension and tire to squat a bit... then progressively squeeze quickly and firmly while your speed is high... as your entrance speed approaches, begin letting off a bit.

The chances of locking up your front wheel, after you've settled the front end and while you are going fast (over 50mph or so) are pretty slim. Certainly as your speed gets below 50 you have to start modulating the front brake a bit (on a modern sportbike... maybe not so much on your older bike)

[-jro-]

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

5) use paragraphs

lol sorry....but thanks to everyone for the helpful advice. You guys are great