[bergs]

I had a real taste of what happens when wheelspin occurs and I saw it a few times on Tuesday's TTD. It surprised me at first but at the same time it felt manageable....well except for the first time I experienced it which resulted in a short ride in the dirt coming over the hill in 4....ooopsy...

I'm wondering how much traction remains at that point? When I felt wheelspin, I kept backing off just a bit to bring the bike back in because I was in unchartered territory. Not out of being scared, out of not knowing how much further I could go with it. It felt like I could give it a little more to swing the bike into the turn further but how much more traction remains or is there a way to gauge that? I suppose I could add some gas and see what happens, eh? Any tips?

[R1slowflyer]

dave tells me you were looking for us in Vermont last month......

My bad i thought you had seen we had to cancel.

back on topic.

I have no idea. i dont know how to ride a motorbike!

[Kurlon]

Go find a dirtbike, and practice with it on the dirt. You'll start to get a feel for things, and won't injure yourself quite as badly when you inevitably screw up. : )

[OreoGitorio]

This is where we use the "ratchet" method:

You roll on the throtle as you exit the corner... smoothly rolling on the gas harder & harder & harder (click, click, click). If you feel the tire begin to slip, that's when your wrist becomes a "ratchet"... IE, your wrist can NOT roll OFF the gas.... you hold that throttle setting until the tire regains grip, then you continue to roll on the throttle.

[imkindafkedup]

I had some wheel slippage coming out of 4, I gave it a little bit to much gas at once. At the time I didn't know what to do, and fortunately for me by the time I realized the rear tire was slipping it already had regained traction.

[Honclfibr]

Welcome to highside hill. You're coming out of the slowest corner on the track (3), then accelerating up a hill which loads the rear tire and gives you lots of traction to goose the thing and get your speed back up.

Then you reach the top of the hill and it flattens out into an off camber section which reduces your available traction. Tricky spot for the big bikes. I'd recommend chilling a bit through that area until you get the lay off the land. Especially since there may be smaller bikes behind you that caught up to you in three and are looking to pass you before the bowl.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

This is where we use the "ratchet" method:

You roll on the throtle as you exit the corner... smoothly rolling on the gas harder & harder & harder (click, click, click). If you feel the tire begin to slip, that's when your wrist becomes a "ratchet"... IE, your wrist can NOT roll OFF the gas.... you hold that throttle setting until the tire regains grip, then you continue to roll on the throttle.

So the way it happens is as I proceed to stand the bike up out of the turn, prevent my wrist from dialing back beyond the point where the spin induces, then roll into the gas more and out of the corner?

On the first occurance I noticed a slight "shuffle" from the rear as I got on the power. What would possibly cause that? The rear shuffled on me only that one time so I'm thinking I might have dialed back the gas upon the new feeling of the bike going sideways...not too sure. I did go harder on the compression damping after that happened and the bike did shuffle for the remainder of the day.

[OreoGitorio]

Correct... as you're smoothly rolling on the gas, if the tire begins to slip, freeze that right hand. Don't move it again until the rear tire regains traction. Then continue your roll-on. You do not want to roll off the gas when the rear tire is spinning. That's the first step to a high-side. The second step is to get thrown into the air

The "shuffle" (if I understand you correctly from your limited description) was probably because you were a little abrupt when you first cracked open the throttle. Solution: Roll on the throttle a little smoother and earlier... and if your RPM's were a little high in the rev range, maybe take the turn in a higher gear and carry more cornerspeed. It's harder to make a tire slip at 50mph than it is at 40.

[l3uddha]

turn 4 was one of my favorite turns. probably gonna highside there one of these days...

[bergs]

Originally Posted by Honclfibr

Tricky spot for the big bikes. I'd recommend chilling a bit through that area until you get the lay off the land. Especially since there may be smaller bikes behind you that caught up to you in three and are looking to pass you before the bowl.

Did you happen to attend Tuesday and see anything like that? You've piqued my curiosity on this very situation...seriously.

If I was holding anyone up it was through 9 and 10...I was slow into 9 all day only to make up some speed exiting 10.

Seemed to me like most everyone was braking too early into 3 to which I got a spanking for taking a different line up the hill in order to pass before the bowl....an honest mistake because I thought I was okay all day...turns out, not so much...

[OreoGitorio]

Honkie wasn't there this time arouind, but he's been to enough track days to know he's got a point.

But that area (up over 5 & into 6) isn't as much of a frustration for the people on lightweight bikes as the front straight is. As everyone SHOULD know by now, we encourage looking over your shoulder after you've completely exited turn 12 and are established on the front straight to see if there's anyone on your tail wanting to pass.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

Correct... as you're smoothly rolling on the gas, if the tire begins to slip, freeze that right hand. Don't move it again until the rear tire regains traction. Then continue your roll-on. You do not want to roll off the gas when the rear tire is spinning. That's the first step to a high-side. The second step is to get thrown into the air

The "shuffle" (if I understand you correctly from your limited description) was probably because you were a little abrupt when you first cracked open the throttle. Solution: Roll on the throttle a little smoother and earlier... and if your RPM's were a little high in the rev range, maybe take the turn in a higher gear and carry more cornerspeed. It's harder to make a tire slip at 50mph than it is at 40.

I mean "shuffle" as in "the beginnnings of a highside" or rear suspension "bounce"...it quite possibly could have been from an abrupt input of the gas....makes sense.

A higher gear is where I ended up....not sure which gear however....maybe 3rd exiting 3 and tapping 4th coming over the hill? Does that sound right?

[Honclfibr]

Nope, wasn't there on tuesday, and I didn't mean to direct it at you in particular as I have no idea how you ride, what turns you're comfortable with, etc...

But as you mentioned, there is a tendency for a lot of new riders to slow way down in three as its a difficult corner to get a hold on, and then if they're on a big bike jam it up the hill. If you're trying to beat them and end up off the racing line that can magnify the issues at the top of the hill, since the racing line up there avoids some of the more traction-challenged spots.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

As everyone SHOULD know by now, we encourage looking over your shoulder after you've completely exited turn 12 and are established on the front straight to see if there's anyone on your tail wanting to pass.

In addition to being 10' or more away from the wall when you go to look............yeah, another spanking for me for signaling a pass on the left down the straight.

Exited wide out of 12 and hung near the wall only to see who I think was union right there behind me...waved him by and got spanked after the session ended...

Anyways...so, wheelspin...it's kinda fun. Wish I had two more sessions to really start to explore it....oh well, maybe next time.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by Honclfibr

Nope, wasn't there on tuesday, and I didn't mean to direct it at you in particular as I have no idea how you ride, what turns you're comfortable with, etc...

I'm genuinely curious about the exact scenario you mention. Didn't feel like you were directing anything at me other than your help.

But as you mentioned, there is a tendency for a lot of new riders to slow way down in three as its a difficult corner to get a hold on, and then if they're on a big bike jam it up the hill. If you're trying to beat them and end up off the racing line that can magnify the issues at the top of the hill, since the racing line up there avoids some of the more traction-challenged spots.

Actually, what got me "noticed" is when I would get in behind someone into 3 and apex waaaaaay outside to cut into 4 up over the hill and pass near the rumble strip on the right...at the time I thought I was okay to do that but, as I later found out, not so much.

For the record: The wheelspin thing I was exploring when I knew I was by myself....I don't want to give the impression that I was being dangerous. I was actually honored to hear many nice compliments from a few other riders once I bumped into blue.

[OreoGitorio]

Yeah your rear suspension could also be a contributing factor.

2nd up to 3rd is more likely or 3rd up to 4th if you were keeping your RPM's low.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

Yeah your rear suspension could also be a contributing factor.

2nd up to 3rd is more likely or 3rd up to 4th if you were keeping your RPM's low.

Early on I was pretty much taching just before the top of the hill and had trouble with getting a smooth up shift while managing the bike toward the bowl....tells me I was in 2nd. Later on I elected to ride into T3 with a taller gear which afforded the aforementioned wheelspin and a much better exit from 3...the crest of that hill is FFFFFUUUUUUUUNNNNNNN!!!!!

[Honclfibr]

Originally Posted by bergs

I'm genuinely curious about the exact scenario you mention. Didn't feel like you were directing anything at me other than your help.

Actually, what got me "noticed" is when I would get in behind someone into 3 and apex waaaaaay outside to cut into 4 up over the hill and pass near the rumble strip on the right...at the time I thought I was okay to do that but, as I later found out, not so much.

For the record: The wheelspin thing I was exploring when I knew I was by myself....I don't want to give the impression that I was being dangerous. I was actually honored to hear many nice compliments from a few other riders once I bumped into blue

There are definitely some real fast guys here and I'm not one of them, but I can tell you what I've noticed coming up the hill (and if I'm getting of this wrong please someone correct me). The race line has you early apex three a bit as the traditional outside-inside line through three would leave you too far to the inside and force you to make a second turn in for for, starting your turn in point for three early causes you to drift out toward the outside and hold your arc to make a nice smooth arc through three to the apex of four.

If you get the line through three right you hit the apex of four pretty tight and you're pointed toward the center of the hill as you apex four, allowing you to start your drive pretty much at the apex of four, which stands the bike up and has it drifting outward so you crest the hill pretty much in the center of the track.

I find if I drift too far to the outside coming up the hill that there's less traction due to the crown of the track there which leaves the outside edge off camber. This is made worse if you dont' make the 3-4 sequence right as if you're not setting up diagonally across the track from the exit of 3 to the apex of 4 you'll need to keep your lean angle greater as you bend around the outside of 4 up the hill.

On the other hand, if you try to hold tight to the inside after the apex of 4 you again have to keep your lean angle greater, and the right side of the track up the hill seems to be a bit bumpy and drops off sharply after the crest which again isn't great for traction. It's a tricky spot, too far to the right or the left leaves you with less than optimal track conditions/camber just as you're making a sharp transition from an uphill section (increased traction) to a downhill section (decreased traction).

Overall, not a section that I've ever had much luck passing in, to be honest it's one of the sections I find myself losing ground to other bikes in a race as I a) don't get hard enough on the gas after the nascar transitions in three and b) wait too long to shift out of 4 and run the bike out of the powerband. But that's on a small bike in a race situation, the bigger bikes seem to have the opposite issue in that they have plenty of power coming out of the apex of four but are typically low in the rpms, by the time they crest the hill they're smack dab in the middle of the powerband right at the time the traction window starts to close.

[BMFR6]

looks good, but the only thing i would add is... an early apex in 3 is not the ideal situation. you understand the line from the apex of 3 and beyond, but it sounds to me that if you feel early apexing (is that even a word?) 3 you are turning in a bit early and a bit lazy. hold your turn in until the last cone on left (and i would recommend finding other, more "permanent" markers) then flip it in hard. you will end up on the same line, minus the early apex. the other added benefit to this of course is suspension, ground clearance and all the other fun stuff you can read in a book.

edit: and somehow i just lost my reply about wheelspin. that sucks.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by Honclfibr

On the other hand, if you try to hold tight to the inside after the apex of 4 you again have to keep your lean angle greater, and the right side of the track up the hill seems to be a bit bumpy and drops off sharply after the crest which again isn't great for traction. It's a tricky spot, too far to the right or the left leaves you with less than optimal track conditions/camber just as you're making a sharp transition from an uphill section (increased traction) to a downhill section (decreased traction).

What my results in that section were before "the spanking" was I'd be pretty much straight up and down only needing to negotiate lateral track movement to avoid the rumble strip. It just seemed to me the race line was 3 feet outside of where I wanted to be as I was noticing I was moving considerably quicker than some out of 3 up and into 4 to make the rule-breaking passes in 5 and down the hill.

Once I was advised to follow an instructor for a few laps and dialed in on the race line after that, that's when I got to experience the wheelspin. Either way, I had a great time seeing the different ways of getting around NHMS.

I thank Jamie (sp?) for instructing, leading and helping me dial in the racing line.......anyone know if he posts here?

Overall, not a section that I've ever had much luck passing in, to be honest it's one of the sections I find myself losing ground to other bikes in a race as I a) don't get hard enough on the gas after the nascar transitions in three and b) wait too long to shift out of 4 and run the bike out of the powerband. But that's on a small bike in a race situation, the bigger bikes seem to have the opposite issue in that they have plenty of power coming out of the apex of four but are typically low in the rpms, by the time they crest the hill they're smack dab in the middle of the powerband right at the time the traction window starts to close.

There's a TON of fun to be had from 3 thru 6...if it were allowed, I'd be doing most of my passing up and in there.

Maybe the gearing is shorter on the FZ1 compared to other sport bikes, but I was taching out by the top of the hill and tapping a taller gear for a short distance down toward 6...I really want to say I was going into T3 in 3rd and tapping 4th over the crest of T5. I tried 2nd gear a few times going into T3 but that just made it rough to shift when entering 4 and then hitting the limiter in 3rd over the crest.....I think I tried that about 5 times and said to hell with it and decided to grab 3rd into T3 instead.

BMFR6-Yeah, I eventually learned to stay on (well, not literally "on") that small section of rumble strip when turning into 3 and letting the throttle roll-on carry me through the rest....as it turns out, later on in Tuesday's sessions, I knew I was hitting 3 correctly when I could just gas it out of T3and the only line at that point was the racing line and ending up on the crack exiting T5.

[Honclfibr]

Originally Posted by BMFR6

looks good, but the only thing i would add is... an early apex in 3 is not the ideal situation. you understand the line from the apex of 3 and beyond, but it sounds to me that if you feel early apexing (is that even a word?) 3 you are turning in a bit early and a bit lazy. hold your turn in until the last cone on left (and i would recommend finding other, more "permanent" markers) then flip it in hard. you will end up on the same line, minus the early apex. the other added benefit to this of course is suspension, ground clearance and all the other fun stuff you can read in a book.

edit: and somehow i just lost my reply about wheelspin. that sucks.

Hmm, perhaps early apex was the wrong term, rather what I try to do is stay somewhat to the center of the track entering three rather than staying tight to the outside and squaring off the turn, as this allows me to make a smooth arc from the turn in point of three, to the outside of the track, and back to the apex of four.

However your point is well taken, I do feel that my turn in for three is a bit lazy and this is definitely due to a lack of reference points for that turn in. I've struggled to find reference points for three more than any other turn on the track, this is very apparent as I find my best lines through that track come when I'm chasing someone else through that section. I find that if I try to use the outside cones, this focuses my attention away from the corner and towards the big looming tire wall which makes me feel like I'm charging the turn, similarly the apex cone in three and the the pavement markings have me focused too close to the front wheel and again I get the feeling of charging the turn. I've had some luck referencing the apex cone in four to set my turn in but find this to be too far away to get a precise turn in point. Something to work on definitely, it such a fascinating turn, beautiful when you get it just right but as often as not I find myself cursing in my helmet going up the hill about blowing the line and with it any chance for a decent drive out of four.

[Evil_Weasel]

i'd just like to add...the throttle wratchet technique is the absolute balls!!!

once you figure it out it can make even the most horrid, rain soaked, lake in 11a session into a freaking blast...even if you are out on DOTs.

you can work on controlling the angle of the slide by weighting the pegs. weigh the outside peg to bring it back in or the inside peg to hang it out more.

seems complicated but it's not as difficult as it sounds. even my slow novice ass figured it out well enough to do huge controlled slides in the damp.

too bad i never had the balls to apply enough throttle to break the rear loose in the dry.

[Paul_E_D]

Bergs, 3-6 is a passing zone, but from 3 to the top of the hill you need to pass on the left. If you're zipping up the rumblestrip on the right, you really are on a dangerous line.

One reason for our passing rules is to prevent the mayhem caused by allowing people to go wherever they want on the track. As you gain experience, you will not need to take strange or convergent lines to pass people. A little patience now will make everyone a lot safer, and you'll be able to get faster without huge risk.

At this point, I wouldn't be thinking about playing with wheelspin. It's traction that you're looking for. Find the faster way through 3/4 without wheelspin and you'll be improving. If you go looking for wheelspin before mastering the line and proper cornerspeed, you'll only be training yourself to do it wrong more and more often. I rode quite fast in every session (on the 576 bike) and never induced a spin.

[OreoGitorio]

Well said, Paul.

[BMFR6]

Originally Posted by Honclfibr

Hmm, perhaps early apex was the wrong term, rather what I try to do is stay somewhat to the center of the track entering three rather than staying tight to the outside and squaring off the turn, as this allows me to make a smooth arc from the turn in point of three, to the outside of the track, and back to the apex of four.

However your point is well taken, I do feel that my turn in for three is a bit lazy and this is definitely due to a lack of reference points for that turn in. I've struggled to find reference points for three more than any other turn on the track, this is very apparent as I find my best lines through that track come when I'm chasing someone else through that section. I find that if I try to use the outside cones, this focuses my attention away from the corner and towards the big looming tire wall which makes me feel like I'm charging the turn, similarly the apex cone in three and the the pavement markings have me focused too close to the front wheel and again I get the feeling of charging the turn. I've had some luck referencing the apex cone in four to set my turn in but find this to be too far away to get a precise turn in point. Something to work on definitely, it such a fascinating turn, beautiful when you get it just right but as often as not I find myself cursing in my helmet going up the hill about blowing the line and with it any chance for a decent drive out of four.

yeah 3 can be tough regarding reference points and it is by no means my best corner. its not the fact that there aren't enough reference points, its the fact that everything is converging so fast that it sucks up your entire attention span. because it feels like you are headed down a narrow chute with a tire wall at the end, everything seems to be happening so much faster. walking out there or even riding the absolute left edge and right edge at a slow pace to grasp how much room there really is helped me out. from there i just started running it slow and building spped after finding more reference points rather than trying to go fast and then find points. just my 2 cents.

on a side note, the cones are a good starting point for reference points, but keep in mind they are not permanent. they can be put in different spots weekend to weekend or even taken out by a downed rider, etc, etc.