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  #1  
Old 04-12-07, 03:33 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Don't fuck with MA you NH, VT, ME, CT, RI PUSSIES!!!

(seroisully, this is fucked up)
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Old 04-12-07, 03:36 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by chr|s sedition View Post
Don't fuck with MA you NH, VT, ME, CT, RI PUSSIES!!!

(seroisully, this is fucked up)
We need more guns, not more Gun Legislature!
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  #3  
Old 04-12-07, 03:39 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Here's a fact. States with fewer gun control laws have lower gun crime rates. Why? Simple. Criminals know there are fewer chances to run into someone with a firearm for protection in a state that doesn't allow the "honest" to carry. The highest gun crime in the country is in D.C..
D.C. doesn't allow handguns.
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  #4  
Old 04-12-07, 03:43 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by dhuze View Post
Here's a fact. States with fewer gun control laws have lower gun crime rates. Why? Simple. Criminals know there are fewer chances to run into someone with a firearm for protection in a state that doesn't allow the "honest" to carry. The highest gun crime in the country is in D.C..
D.C. doesn't allow handguns.
Cite please?
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  #5  
Old 04-12-07, 04:00 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


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Originally Posted by chr|s sedition View Post
Cite please?

sure thing
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  #6  
Old 04-12-07, 04:02 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


maybe religion helps.
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  #7  
Old 04-12-07, 04:02 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by chr|s sedition View Post
Cite please?
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
Crime & Criminal Justice
More Guns, Less Crime


Violent crime hit an all-time high in 1991. Since then, "gun control" laws have been rolled back, the number of privately-owned guns has risen to an all-time high, and violent crime has dropped to a 30-year low.

More Guns. The number of privately-owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) estimates there were about 215 million guns in 19991; the National Academy of Sciences puts the 1999 figure at 258 million2. The number of new guns each year averages about 4.5 million (about 2%).3 According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there were 60.4 million approved (new and used) NICS firearm transactions from 1994-2004.4 The FBI reports that there were 61.6 million approved NICS transactions from Nov. 30, 1998 through the end of 2005, and that the annual number of transactions increased 2.4% between 2003-2004 and 3.1% between 2004-2005.5

More Gun Owners. The number of gun owners is also at an all-time high. The U.S. population is at an all-time high (296 million), and rises about 1% annually,6 and numerous surveys over the last 40+ years have found that almost half of all households have at least one gun owner.7 Some surveys since the late 1990s have indicated a smaller incidence of gun ownership,8 probably because of some respondents’ concerns about "gun control," perhaps a residual effect of the anti-gun policies of the Clinton Administration.

More Right-to-Carry. The number of RTC states is at an all-time high, up from 10 in 1987 to 40 today.9 In 2005, states with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, had lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime lower by 22%, murder by 30%, robbery by 46%, and aggravated assault by 12%.10

Less "Gun Control." Violent crime has declined while many "gun control" laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive. Many states have eliminated prohibitory or restrictive carry laws, in favor of Right-to-Carry laws. The federal Brady Act’s waiting period on handgun sales expired in 1998, in favor of the NRA-supported National Instant Check, and some states concurrently or thereafter eliminated waiting periods or purchase permit requirements. The federal "assault weapon" ban expired in 2004. All states have hunter protection laws, 46 have range protection laws, 46 prohibit local jurisdictions from imposing gun laws more restrictive than state law, 44 protect the right to arms in their constitutions, and Congress and 33 states have prohibited frivolous lawsuits against the firearm industry.11

Less Crime. The FBI reports that the nation’s total violent crime rate declined every year between 1991-2004, to a 30-year low in 2004, and estimates that it rose 1% in 2005.12 (By comparison, the most recent Bureau of Justice Statistics crime victim survey found that "at the national level crime rates remain stabilized at the lowest level experienced since 1973," when the first such survey was conducted.14)

According to the FBI, in 2005 the nation’s violent crime rates were significantly lower than they were in 1991, when the violent crime rate hit an all-time high. In 2005, total violent crime was lower by 38%, murder by 43%, rape by 25%, robbery by 48%, and aggravated assault by 33%. During 2004-2005, total violent crime was lower than anytime since 1976. For the last seven years, the murder rate (between 5.5 and 5.7 per 100,000 annually) has been lower than anytime since 1965.13 Studies by and/or for Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the Library of Congress, the National Institute of Justice, the National Academy of Sciences, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have found no evidence that "gun control" reduces crime.15

Notes:

1. BATF, "Crime Gun Trace Reports (1999) National Report," Nov. 2000, p. ix (www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/1999/index.htm).

2. National Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review, National Academies Press, 2005.

3. BATF, "Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002" (ATF Online.

4. BJS, "Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2004" (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/pub/pdf/bcft04.pdf).

5. FBI, "NICS Operations 2005," Jan. 2006 (Federal Bureau of Investigation - National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS))

6. Bureau of the Census (http://www.census.gov/popest/states/...ST2005-01.xls).

7. Gary Kleck, Targeting Firearms, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997, pp. 94, 98-100.

8. E.g., BJS Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 2002, Table 2.58, (www.albany.edu/sourcebook/).

9. See NRA RTC fact sheet (within www.nraila.org/Issues/Filter.aspx?ID=003).

10. FBI, Crime in the United States 2005 (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/d...ts/05tbl05.xls) for state crime statistics.

11. See NRA-ILA Compendium of State Firearms Laws (www.nraila.org/media/misc/compendium.htm). Also, note that in October 2005, federal legislation prohibiting such lawsuits was signed into law.

12. FBI, Crime in the United States 2005, Table 4, (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/d...ts/05tbl04.xls) and BJS (http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/).

13. Ibid. Condensed at NRA-ILA ::, click on "Research," then "Crime Statistics."

14. BJS, "Criminal Victimization 2005," (www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/pub/pdf/cv05.pdf).

15. Federal "assault weapon" ban: Roth, Koper, et al., Impact Evaluation of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, March 13, 1997 (The Urban Institute | Search Reedy and Koper, "Impact of handgun types on gun assault outcomes: a comparison of gun assaults involving semiautomatic pistols and revolvers," Injury Prevention 2003, (http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/9/2/151); Koper et al., Report to the National Institute of Justice, An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003, June 2004 (Untitled Document Wm. J. Krouse, Congressional Research Service Report for Congress, "Semiautomatic Assault Weapons Ban," Dec. 16, 2004. "Gun control," generally: Library of Congress, Report for Congress: Firearms Regulations in Various Foreign Countries, May 1998, LL98-3, 97-2010; Task Force on Community Preventive Service, "First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws," Morbidity and Mortaility Weekly Report, Oct. 3, 2003 (www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm); National Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review, National Academies Press, 2005 (Firearms and Violence:.

Posted: 9/26/2006 12:00:00 AM
ignoring that. look at NYC, LA, Boston, Detriot, Chicago which are considered the most violent cities in america. all are in states that have the strictest gun laws.
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  #8  
Old 04-12-07, 04:03 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


more information
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  #9  
Old 04-12-07, 04:10 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Got anything in the form of a pie chart? Or maybe a histogram?
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  #10  
Old 04-12-07, 04:12 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Thanks for the cites. I did a paper gun laws and criminal "justice" in my public interest clinic last year (not on this issue, however). My professor mentioned the same thing you did, but I never bothered to read up on it. Of course, the flip side of the argument is that if you look at countries that ban guns, they have a very small % of gun violence.

I really dont think the laws, or the guns, are what make people in the country trigger happy. From what I know, there are plenty of other places that have boat loads of guns per capita, yet a much lower murder rates than we do. People here are just fucking crazy...
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  #11  
Old 04-12-07, 04:22 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


You know what pisses me off the most, that damn billboard they had up on the back on Avalon nightclub for the longest time. It said "Gun laws prevent crime." That's a bunch of bull. I think it's the other way around, gun laws cause crime!!!

Oh yea proud owner of 4 firearms. I dare the goverment to take them away from me!!!!
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  #12  
Old 04-12-07, 04:22 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


I don't think anyone on this site is surprised by that article
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  #13  
Old 04-12-07, 04:31 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


I am gonna start going to the shooting range. Could anyone reccommend a good range in the Western MA area?
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  #14  
Old 04-12-07, 04:33 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by KillBill View Post
I am gonna start going to the shooting range. Could anyone reccommend a good range in the Western MA area?
I think downtown Holyoke would be a good place to start.
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  #15  
Old 04-12-07, 05:18 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by chr|s sedition View Post
........... Of course, the flip side of the argument is that if you look at countries that ban guns, they have a very small % of gun violence.

I really dont think the laws, or the guns, are what make people in the country trigger happy. From what I know, there are plenty of other places that have boat loads of guns per capita, yet a much lower murder rates than we do. People here are just fucking crazy...

Chris Look at Africa, Austrailia, and brittain. They have very few guns in civilian hands and their crime rate has sky rocketed since they banned guns.

Criminals Do not obey laws. Thats why they are called criminals. No criminal is saying "Oh this gun is illegal? I'd better hurry and turn it in." On the other hand honest people are turning them in so they don't get in trouble. Now who has a gun?

I agree people are the problem , but the laws that exist are not enforced like they should be. We don't need new laws we need to enforce the ones that exist.
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  #16  
Old 04-12-07, 08:56 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by dhuze View Post
I agree people are the problem , but the laws that exist are not enforced like they should be. We don't need new laws we need to enforce the ones that exist.
This is the key thing, gun laws don't mean much when you can buy an illegal gun virtually anywhere in the USA. The gun black market here is just way too big for laws to have any effect.

It is true that Florida crime rates dropped a lot when they relaxed the concealed carry laws, but I believe this was the only state where this occurred. (The correlation was so strong in Florida that it looks like it's true nationwide when you lump everything together, but not when you consider the states individually).

However correlation is not causation. My own belief is that the gun laws probably had no effect, that something else was going on in Florida at the time. Prior to the gun law change, FL had significantly higher crime per capita than everyplace else, now it's more in line with the rest of the country. You've got to wonder why it was so high in the first place...
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  #17  
Old 04-12-07, 09:39 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
Prior to the gun law change, FL had significantly higher crime per capita than everyplace else, now it's more in line with the rest of the country. You've got to wonder why it was so high in the first place...
I dunno... but to play devil's advocate... perhaps for the same reason that it's high in DC, Chicago, etc... the (well-known) fact that it's unlikely that the perp. will encounter a legally armed victim. It's not just FL, I think DC's a pretty good example... NO LEGAL HANDGUNS... does that mean no handguns? Of course not.. The Washington D.C. "...homicide rate climbed 200 percent from 1976 to 2001, while the national rate grew 12 percent..."

Source: Washington Post
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Old 04-12-07, 10:15 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by trickphoto View Post
I dunno... but to play devil's advocate... perhaps for the same reason that it's high in DC, Chicago, etc... the (well-known) fact that it's unlikely that the perp. will encounter a legally armed victim. It's not just FL, I think DC's a pretty good example... NO LEGAL HANDGUNS... does that mean no handguns? Of course not.. The Washington D.C. "...homicide rate climbed 200 percent from 1976 to 2001, while the national rate grew 12 percent..."

Source: Washington Post
Maybe, but crime rates rise and fall a lot even when the the gun laws don't change. I think it has more to do with numbers and density of unemployed uneducated young people than anything else. I have a hard time imagining that some random carjacking crack head who flunked out of 8th grade is even aware of the laws...
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Old 04-12-07, 10:45 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
Maybe, but crime rates rise and fall a lot even when the the gun laws don't change. I think it has more to do with numbers and density of unemployed uneducated young people than anything else. I have a hard time imagining that some random carjacking crack head who flunked out of 8th grade is even aware of the laws...
Yup, no doubt there are plenty of true, completely out of touch space cadets. It'd be hard to quantify, but I wonder what kind of percentage they represent. I'd argue it's relatively small compared to those criminals that have what little sense is required to consider whether or not their target could or could not (legally) be carrying. Either way, the real issue is that regardless of the assumed mental capacity of the ciminals or the firearms laws intended to govern them, the one constant is that the criminals don't obey laws. If the problem is unemployment and a lousy school system then let that be the focus of new legislation. Adding laws to further remove guns from the hands of innocent, law abiding potential victims of the unemployed, uneducated young people just doesn't work in the long run. Not only does it have NO EFFECT on the illegal guns in the hands of criminals, all it creates (in my opinion) is easier targets that criminals are more than willing and able to exploit.

Last edited by Tricky Mike : 04-12-07 at 11:17 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-12-07, 11:52 PM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


eh, it's not so bad living in a small, quiet suburb of central MA
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  #21  
Old 04-13-07, 01:00 AM
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MA: State of Hard Knocks


Quote:
Originally Posted by FBI Study Confirms, Criminals do not obey gun laws
FBI STUDY CONFIRMING GUN LAWS IGNORED BY COP KILLERS AND CRIMINALS NOW AVAILABLE
The FBI recently completed a major study of shootings of police officers. Titled "Violent Encounters: Felonious Assaults on America's Law Enforcement Officers." Since its publication, the existence of the damning report on the five-year study by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) about how cop-killing criminals ignore gun laws, and where they get their guns, has not been publicized. Calgunlaws.com has one of the first copies of the report obtained publicly.

The existence of the report was first discovered by self defense civil rights activists in January 2007 when it was mentioned in a law enforcement newsletter. According to the December 28, 2006 issue of Force Science News, the FBI research focused on 40 incidents involving assaults or deadly attacks on police officers, in which all but one of the guns involved had been obtained illegally, and none were obtained from gun shows.
The Force Science News is published by the Force Science Research Center, a non-profit institution based at Minnesota State University in Mankato. The newsletter quotes Ed Davis, an FBI Criminal Investigative Instructor, who told the International Association of Chiefs of Police that none of these criminals who attacked police officers was "hindered by any law - federal, sate or local - that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws." The newsletter also stated, "In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows."

The report is a 'smoking gun' in terms of revelations about the sources of crime guns and the failure of gun control. Apparently anti-gun owner politicians and police chiefs do not want the public to know the truth as they campaign against the so-called "gun show loophole". Now it's time for the IACP leadership, police officials, and political leaders to acknowledge that gun laws don't stop criminals, that they only restrict the rights of law-abiding citizens, and that gun shows are not the 'arms bazaars for criminals' as they have been portrayed.

The FBI's website says that "Violent Encounters: Felonious Assaults on America's Law Enforcement Officers" is available from the Uniform Crime Reporting Program Office, FBI Complex, 1000 Custer Hollow Road, Clarksburg, WV 26306-0150 or by calling 888-827-6427
tada
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