[Stoneman]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid
OOOH OOOH (Arnold Horschak-esque)!!

Ok, I've ALWAYS wanted to know this:

What are the signals the catcher makes with his fingers as he's crouching? Are those signals: 1. Universal and 2. Is he giving pitching "suggestions", thus the 'yes/no' nods by the pitcher?

There's really too much to get into with catcher's signals...

There ARE univerally accepted signals: 1, 2, or 3 fingers. In typical circumstances, 1 would be the heat, 2 would be the breaker or curve, and 3 would be the change up or off speed pitch...

But there are a million and one exceptions to this: If there are runners on for instance, the catcher will use an indicator first to let the pitcher know which set of signals he's using. The actual signal could come 1, 2, even 3 signals AFTER the indicator signal is given. Sometimes, they'll even change signals every inning as well as indicators...

The nodding is two fold, really. Sometimes the nodding has nothing to do with what he's gonna throw. In some cases, the pitch called for will get 'shaken off', when in reality THAT is the actual pitch he's gonna toss. In that case, the pitcher and catcher BOTH know that the 1st signal given (as an example) after the indicator will be the pitch to throw. But the pitcher will make it appear that he's shaking it off to further confuse the batter. Following me? And sometimes even still, the pitch rotation will be predetermined and the nodding and signals mean nothing...

Nodding/shaking off: Sometimes the catcher calls for the pitches. In which cases you COULD see the pitcher shaking off the pitches he won't feel comfortable throwing. However, more and more COACHES will signal into the catcher what to call for. Watch closely between pitches next time you're watching. You may see the catcher glance over to his bench between each pitch...

Also watch the catcher's eyes as the batter is 'digging in'. He'll wait until the batter is gazed on the pitcher before giving his signals. You may also notice how complex those signals become when runners are on base, particularly second base...

There's A LOT more going on with signals though. It's just WAY too much to cover in an afternoon...

Okay. Stop doing this to me. I can go on for days!

[Stoneman]

Sorry, but YOU got me going...

INDICATORS are a predetermined signal that is used to let the pitcher know when the actual signal is coming...

Example: FIRST inning, the indicator will be the catcher deliberately touching his elbow. The 'live' signal would then be the FIRST signal given after the indicator. In the SECOND inning, the 'live' signal would be the SECOND signal after the indicator. And so on throughout the game. Although usually after the fourth inning, they'll rotate back to the original set of signal 'rules' (remember the indicator could also change every inning)...

These can get kinda extreme. Usually during the regular season (when not so much is riding on THE game), they'll use much less complex sets of signals. But they WILL still use different 'sets' of signs and signals to make sure opposition isn't 'stealing' their signals, just usually not as complex as what we'll see in the post season...

[benVFR]

Dude you got it all wrong.

The catcher is just playing with his package and the pitcher is just twitching his head cause he's juiced up on amphetamines to keep his concentration up.

Ben

[bemused]

hey, Jay... why don'tcha COWBOY UP and give him schoolin' on the infield fly rule... ???

[Stoneman]

'Course, this whole signal 'system' is also used between batters and the third base coach also. And the third base coach usually gets HIS signals from the manager on the bench...

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by bemused
hey, Jay... why don'tcha COWBOY UP and give him schoolin' on the infield fly rule... ???

Too easy, that one is...

Wow....

It's like a plot within a plot within a plot! Now it's starting to get mightly involved... Well, 'er, thanks Jay, I don't know what to say?!!!

To think, I always thought pitching was completely at the whim of the pitcher, seems like nowadays he's more of an "order taker", or a machine that "stamps-out" pitches requested by others...

[bemused]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid
To think, I always thought pitching was completely at the whim of the pitcher, seems like nowadays he's more of an "order taker", or a machine that "stamps-out" pitches requested by others...

kinda like a modern-day quarterback...

[rocker]

Did I start another thread that is going to spin out of control...

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid
To think, I always thought pitching was completely at the whim of the pitcher, seems like nowadays he's more of an "order taker", or a machine that "stamps-out" pitches requested by others...

Not necessarily. Sometimes a pitcher gets too worked up to make the right decisions. Sometimes pride gets in the way of making the right pitch. Plus, the coaches and the catchers usually see any particular batter way more than a typical pitcher would. So they may know better what to throw to 'em...

WTF? You would think a spontaneous game plan might be a little more exciting than a bunch of people assessing a situation and making recommendations on plays... <---- Another good sportsbar question.

Originally posted by Stoneman
Not necessarily. Sometimes a pitcher gets too worked up to make the right decisions. Sometimes pride gets in the way of making the right pitch. Plus, the coaches and the catchers usually see any particular batter way more than a typical pitcher would. So they may know better what to throw to 'em...

Hmmmm, makes sense... The plot thickens...

Pride 'eh, such as Pedro's seemingly biased pitching due to the attention Clemens is getting, but, since you say Pedro pitches better when he's pissed, the bias, in this case, is not necessarily a bad thing...


Wow, I've never discussed baseball this much in my LIFE!

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid
Wow, I've never discussed baseball this much in my LIFE!

I can go on and on and on and on and on and on....

[bemused]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid
WTF? You would think a spontaneous game plan might be a little more exciting than a bunch of people assessing a situation and making recommendations on plays... <---- Another good sportsbar question.

NOW you sound as though you think pro sports are primarily intended to entertain the fans... rather than a $$$ making business proposition...

Originally posted by bemused
NOW you sound as though you think pro sports are primarily intended to entertain the fans... rather than a $$$ making business proposition...

Originally posted by Stoneman
I can go on and on and on and on and on and on....

This, I doubt not....

[benVFR]

Mystery Squid...

It's WAY worse than you think.

The teams even employ scouts who watch the players on other teams and keep stats on what they do.

I have no where near this level of knowledge and this is contrived but the Red Sox will be able to say something like this:

"Derek Jeter hits to right-center field 60% of the time when he hits a line drive or fly ball, move the outfielders accordingly."
(That is probably totally wrong, just an example)

They have that amount of info on like every player on every other team once they play for a while. You'll see them moving the fielders forward/back & left/right for different guys and situations if you watch really carefully.

And they have all the data for batting/pitching too, they will know that a certain guy can hit a curve from a left-handed pitcher really well but can't hit a right-handed slider at all, etc..

Scary, isn't it?

Ben

Originally posted by benSV
Mystery Squid...

It's WAY worse than you think.

The teams even employ scouts who watch the players on other teams and keep stats on what they do.

I have no where near this level of knowledge and this is contrived but the Red Sox will be able to say something like this:

"Derek Jeter hits to right-center field 60% of the time when he hits a line drive or fly ball, move the outfielders accordingly."
(That is probably totally wrong, just an example)

They have that amount of info on like every player on every other team once they play for a while. You'll see them moving the fielders forward/back & left/right for different guys and situations if you watch really carefully.

And they have all the data for batting/pitching too, they will know that a certain guy can hit a curve from a left-handed pitcher really well but can't hit a right-handed slider at all, etc..

Scary, isn't it?

Ben

DAMN! It almost seems like the actual game of "baseball" is mere a resultant of this bigger psychological war game!

Just bring back the actual game of Baseball damnit!.

I believe it Ben, I believe it....

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid
DAMN! It almost seems like the actual game of "baseball" is mere a resultant of this bigger psychological war game!

Just bring back the actual game of Baseball damnit!.

I believe it Ben, I believe it....

Baseball is, and always will be a game of stats, numbers and probables...

You know, slooooowly, I'm starting to get into this... For the first time in my live, I sat through an entire game last night.

Who's the guy that threw that knuckleball? Damn, on the slow-mo, the ball BARELY turned! :o

[g®eg]

oh, I dunno....

I was yellin' at the Yankees pretty loud from over by the right field foul pole last night...

couple of observations though: Michael Bolton forgot the lyrics to the National Anthem

the Cowboy Up song has got to be the lamest / gheyest song EVER!

Go SOX!

Originally posted by T-595 Greg
oh, I dunno....

I was yellin' at the Yankees pretty loud from over by the right field foul pole last night...

couple of observations though: Michael Bolton forgot the lyrics to the National Anthem

the Cowboy Up song has got to be the lamest / gheyest song EVER!

Go SOX!

Yeah, that "Cowboy Up" dude is a prime example of the concept of "15 Minutes of Fame"....

[g®eg]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid


Yeah, that "Cowboy Up" dude is a prime example of the concept of "15 Minutes of Fame"....

16 minutes later....

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by Mystery Squid
Who's the guy that threw that knuckleball? Damn, on the slow-mo, the ball BARELY turned! :o

That's Tim Wakefield. Although Mussina (the Yankee's starter last night) has a knuckle-curveball that he'll throw from time to time...

Not only are knuckleballs incredibly hard to hit, but if you do get a hold of one you'll usually either flare it or hit a weak grounder. But they're awesome to watch coming at you. They 'dance' all over the place. And if it's a GOOD knuckleball, it'll drop just before it crosses the plate...